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While you may end up being entirely correct, it is too early to start finger-pointing before the investigations are finished. Neither Lion nor Ethiopian had st

While you may end up being entirely correct, it is too early to start finger-pointing before the investigations are finished. Neither Lion nor Ethiopian had stellar safety records, e.g. * https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/22/world/asia/lion-air-crash-safety-failures.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/22/world/asia/lion-air-crash... * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian_Airlines_accidents_and_incidents https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian_Airlines_accidents_a... The training hours should also be looked in the context of the total hours flown on that specific model - a pilot who just sat through the short training session would have a different perspective than a pilot who sat through the same training session but has also flown the plane for hundreds of hours. It's also not a brand new airplane - it's a modification of 737, so the training is transitional. It's not like Boeing took a freshly minted Cessna 152 pilot, gave them a 2-hour seminar, and type-rated them for the 737 Max.

kalleboo 8y ago
> It's not like Boeing took a freshly minted Cessna 152 pilot, gave them a 2-hour seminar, and type-rated them for the 737 Max This ASRS report almost makes it sound like that https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19374386 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19374386
- sokoloff 8y ago
  The author of that ASRS report almost surely holds an ATP, a 737 type rating, and has passed the -MAX differences training. That's quite a stretch from a 4-cylinder single engine, 110mph prop plane transition.
tibbydudeza 8y ago
Nonsense. Ethiopian airlines is rated Category 1 by the FAA and can thus fly direct to the US and they are a member of the star alliance. Just because they are the largest carrier in Africa does not imply dubious safety or maintenance.
- briandear 8y ago
  They had a 200 hour pilot flying in the right seat of the crashed airplane. Star Alliance or not, who in the hell defends a low-time student pilot flying right seat in an airliner? In the US, that would be illegal as a first officer has a 1500 hour requirement along with significant multi-engine turbine training. That copilot wouldn’t even have enough hours for a commercial certificate, let alone ATP.
  - the_mitsuhiko 8y ago
    > They had a 200 hour pilot flying in the right seat of the crashed airplane. Star Alliance or not, who in the hell defends a low-time student pilot flying right seat in an airliner? So do European airlines and they have great safety records.
    - js2 8y ago
      FWIW Malcolm Gladwell's business bestseller Outliers: The Story of Success has a chapter devoted to explaining the superior safety record of American major airlines compared to foreign carriers: "The Ethnic Theory of Plane Crashes". Gladwell comes to the conclusion that foreigners are unsafe because they are ... foreign. They have a strange and defective culture that prevents the first officer (copilot) from speaking up and pointing out problems to the captain. If only everyone were American, the world would be a better and safer place. This article explores an alternative explanation: foreign airlines do comparatively poorly because their first officers have almost no pilot-in-command experience. https://philip.greenspun.com/flying/foreign-airline-safety https://philip.greenspun.com/flying/foreign-airline-safety
  - xhruso00 8y ago
    200 or 20 000 hour doesn't matter because the pilot called back the airport that he has issues taking off. This indicate a problem with plane, anything that happened after might a pilot mistake but 100% you have confirmed plane issue.
  - CaptainZapp 8y ago
    You conveniently forgot to mention that the captain of the flight was highly experienced with 8'000 hours of flight time.
cmurf 8y ago
Rather important is that it was in fact considered to have substantially different enough behavior to warrant a required type rating for pilots, obviated due to the software abstraction provided by MCAS. However, this abstraction is effectively disabled when setting stabilizer trim to cutoff which is one of the later steps in the normal troubleshooting sequence. OK? So the airplane is in an emergency situation, with a flight characteristic normalizing software routine disabled, thereby making it possible for the airplane to exhibit the very behavior that pilots were never informed of, never trained for, and not required to have a type rating for, that MCAS existed for in the first place. I think that's quite a lot more relevant than airline safety records. Ethiopian Airlines has a good recent safety record anyway. And the outcry, upon MCAS being publicly revealed, among the U.S. pilot community I also think demonstrates important relative concern. And, quite a concerning story about U.S. 737 MAX pilots using the anonymous aviation safety reporting system to communicate their concerns, whether instead of or because of the normal channels for doing so. https://www.dallasnews.com/business/airlines/2019/03/12/boeing-737-max-8-pilots-complained-feds-months-suspected-safety-flaw https://www.dallasnews.com/business/airlines/2019/03/12/boei...
- GreeningRun 8y ago
  And the relevant HN link https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19373216 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19373216
thereare5lights 8y ago
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian_Airlines_accidents_and_incidents https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian_Airlines_accidents_a... Oh cool 5 events in the last 23 years. That sounds like a stellar safety record to me.
- fegul 8y ago
  What other airlines are you comparing it to?
  - cxnhq 8y ago
    Air [Fr,Ch]ance?
    - kitd 8y ago
      And per aircraft flying hour?
tlrobinson 8y ago
I'll just leave this here: https://seminyaktimes.com/woman-allegedly-invited-into-lion-air-cockpit-for-a-smoke/ https://seminyaktimes.com/woman-allegedly-invited-into-lion-... http://www.aviationnews-online.com/airline/lion-air-pilots-smoking-crystal-meth/ http://www.aviationnews-online.com/airline/lion-air-pilots-s...
peteradio 8y ago
What is with this argument? Why the hell is it "carry on business as usual until we nail down exact causes" why is it not OMG two goddamn planes (brand fucking new of the same type) fell out of the sky under similar circumstances better ground them until we nail down exact causes. Like the longer the fucking mystery goes on the longer these death bombs stay in the air? That is an idiotic argument.
- Tsubasachan 8y ago
  There are always things going on in the background. Boeing is a major US company so the FAA may be more reluctant to ground them. For most countries "better safe than sorry" was an easy option. At the end of the day its airliners who are left holding the bag, but with some logistical wizardry everyone can still go on holiday. There was just no reason for China, Singapore, the UK and the EU not to ground these planes. The airline industry has to deal with public perception.
  - jimmy1 8y ago
    > The airline industry has to deal with public perception. Yes and I think that is what is at stake here as well. The airline industry at the end of the day is an industry. We forget that sometimes because it feels like a monopolistic or oligarlistic industry, but we are their customers, and if people start demanding that they not ride a 737 Max, and start to refuse to purchase routes that are serviced by a 737 Max, you'll see some changes really quick. I for one have told every loved one, and every person I know that travels frequently to not board these planes, and they agree as well. I additionally informed my boss and clients that if they need me to fly, it will absolutely under no circumstances be on a 737Max. I am 100% certain I am not alone in this.

kalleboo 8y ago

> It's not like Boeing took a freshly minted Cessna 152 pilot, gave them a 2-hour seminar, and type-rated them for the 737 Max This ASRS report almost makes it sound like that https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19374386 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19374386

sokoloff 8y ago
The author of that ASRS report almost surely holds an ATP, a 737 type rating, and has passed the -MAX differences training. That's quite a stretch from a 4-cylinder single engine, 110mph prop plane transition.

tibbydudeza 8y ago

Nonsense. Ethiopian airlines is rated Category 1 by the FAA and can thus fly direct to the US and they are a member of the star alliance. Just because they are the largest carrier in Africa does not imply dubious safety or maintenance.

briandear 8y ago
They had a 200 hour pilot flying in the right seat of the crashed airplane. Star Alliance or not, who in the hell defends a low-time student pilot flying right seat in an airliner? In the US, that would be illegal as a first officer has a 1500 hour requirement along with significant multi-engine turbine training. That copilot wouldn’t even have enough hours for a commercial certificate, let alone ATP.
- the_mitsuhiko 8y ago
  > They had a 200 hour pilot flying in the right seat of the crashed airplane. Star Alliance or not, who in the hell defends a low-time student pilot flying right seat in an airliner? So do European airlines and they have great safety records.
  - js2 8y ago
    FWIW Malcolm Gladwell's business bestseller Outliers: The Story of Success has a chapter devoted to explaining the superior safety record of American major airlines compared to foreign carriers: "The Ethnic Theory of Plane Crashes". Gladwell comes to the conclusion that foreigners are unsafe because they are ... foreign. They have a strange and defective culture that prevents the first officer (copilot) from speaking up and pointing out problems to the captain. If only everyone were American, the world would be a better and safer place. This article explores an alternative explanation: foreign airlines do comparatively poorly because their first officers have almost no pilot-in-command experience. https://philip.greenspun.com/flying/foreign-airline-safety https://philip.greenspun.com/flying/foreign-airline-safety
- xhruso00 8y ago
  200 or 20 000 hour doesn't matter because the pilot called back the airport that he has issues taking off. This indicate a problem with plane, anything that happened after might a pilot mistake but 100% you have confirmed plane issue.
- CaptainZapp 8y ago
  You conveniently forgot to mention that the captain of the flight was highly experienced with 8'000 hours of flight time.

cmurf 8y ago

Rather important is that it was in fact considered to have substantially different enough behavior to warrant a required type rating for pilots, obviated due to the software abstraction provided by MCAS. However, this abstraction is effectively disabled when setting stabilizer trim to cutoff which is one of the later steps in the normal troubleshooting sequence. OK? So the airplane is in an emergency situation, with a flight characteristic normalizing software routine disabled, thereby making it possible for the airplane to exhibit the very behavior that pilots were never informed of, never trained for, and not required to have a type rating for, that MCAS existed for in the first place. I think that's quite a lot more relevant than airline safety records. Ethiopian Airlines has a good recent safety record anyway. And the outcry, upon MCAS being publicly revealed, among the U.S. pilot community I also think demonstrates important relative concern. And, quite a concerning story about U.S. 737 MAX pilots using the anonymous aviation safety reporting system to communicate their concerns, whether instead of or because of the normal channels for doing so. https://www.dallasnews.com/business/airlines/2019/03/12/boeing-737-max-8-pilots-complained-feds-months-suspected-safety-flaw https://www.dallasnews.com/business/airlines/2019/03/12/boei...

GreeningRun 8y ago
And the relevant HN link https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19373216 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19373216

thereare5lights 8y ago

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian_Airlines_accidents_and_incidents https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian_Airlines_accidents_a... Oh cool 5 events in the last 23 years. That sounds like a stellar safety record to me.

fegul 8y ago
What other airlines are you comparing it to?
- cxnhq 8y ago
  Air [Fr,Ch]ance?
  - kitd 8y ago
    And per aircraft flying hour?

tlrobinson 8y ago

I'll just leave this here: https://seminyaktimes.com/woman-allegedly-invited-into-lion-air-cockpit-for-a-smoke/ https://seminyaktimes.com/woman-allegedly-invited-into-lion-... http://www.aviationnews-online.com/airline/lion-air-pilots-smoking-crystal-meth/ http://www.aviationnews-online.com/airline/lion-air-pilots-s...

peteradio 8y ago

What is with this argument? Why the hell is it "carry on business as usual until we nail down exact causes" why is it not OMG two goddamn planes (brand fucking new of the same type) fell out of the sky under similar circumstances better ground them until we nail down exact causes. Like the longer the fucking mystery goes on the longer these death bombs stay in the air? That is an idiotic argument.

Tsubasachan 8y ago
There are always things going on in the background. Boeing is a major US company so the FAA may be more reluctant to ground them. For most countries "better safe than sorry" was an easy option. At the end of the day its airliners who are left holding the bag, but with some logistical wizardry everyone can still go on holiday. There was just no reason for China, Singapore, the UK and the EU not to ground these planes. The airline industry has to deal with public perception.
- jimmy1 8y ago
  > The airline industry has to deal with public perception. Yes and I think that is what is at stake here as well. The airline industry at the end of the day is an industry. We forget that sometimes because it feels like a monopolistic or oligarlistic industry, but we are their customers, and if people start demanding that they not ride a 737 Max, and start to refuse to purchase routes that are serviced by a 737 Max, you'll see some changes really quick. I for one have told every loved one, and every person I know that travels frequently to not board these planes, and they agree as well. I additionally informed my boss and clients that if they need me to fly, it will absolutely under no circumstances be on a 737Max. I am 100% certain I am not alone in this.