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From the article: "It may be legal to pledge $2.5 million to Harvard just as your son is applying — which is what Jared Kushner’s father did for him — and illeg

From the article: "It may be legal to pledge $2.5 million to Harvard just as your son is applying — which is what Jared Kushner’s father did for him — and illegal to bribe a coach to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars, but how much of a difference is there, really? Both elevate money over accomplishment."

massivecali 8y ago
The first is for the benefit of all the other students in the form of reduced tuition grants, a new library, lab equipment etc. The other is for the benefit of the bribe taker. There are lots of situations that elevate X over accomplishment, but this seems like one with actual benefit on a large scale. That said, I hope they all get punished for it.
- YeahSureWhyNot 8y ago
  I dont think a monetary donation means a new lab or a library for all students to use that otherwise would have not been built. these universities have excess budget and easily afford to carry out new construction and procurement as planned regardless of donations. Im sure if the said parent had not donated the 2.5 million dollars, not a single thing would have been different for the students. not one.
  - smallgovt 8y ago
    >> I'm sure if the said parent had not donated the 2.5 million dollars, not a single thing would have been different for the students. Not one. That's definitely false. Most universities tie annual endowment spending to total endowment size. Just because you can't directly tie the dollars to a specific project, doesn't mean it didn't contribute to the general student body's quality of education.
  - cshimmin 8y ago
    What are you talking about, of course sourcing new endowments allows them to build more things/provide more services/etc. Approximately half of Yale's operating budget comes from revenue generated by its hospital system (which is a whole 'nother contentious issue, but besides the point). The other half largely comes from drawing a "safe amount" on it's endowment principal, i.e., small enough to be sustainable in the long term without depleting the fund. A relatively small part comes from tuition. Obviously, increasing the endowment (be it $2.5MM or $250MM at a time) increases the amount that can be put towards budgeting in the future -- enabling, for example, the University to grow its student body (which Yale is currently doing) while maintaining the ability to privately subsidize student tuition.
- magpi3 8y ago
  If the bribe taker donated all of the money to charity, would that make it any less unethical for the University/basketball coach? A bribe is a bribe, and the spot that was taken in the University could have and should have gone to someone more deserving.
  - EpicEng 8y ago
    >If the bribe taker donated all of the money to charity, would that make it any less unethical for the University/basketball coach Yes, it would. That wouldn't make it ethical or legal of course.
- smallgovt 8y ago
  This is a classical "ends justify means" argument. Though most people won't admit it, I think it's a valid argument, but requires a rather perverse value system.
- dakial1 8y ago
  People who claim that top schools have excess budget have no idea how expensive it is to run them. Pledges are a total ok way of funding scholarships and other benefits for the student community on those schools. One "stupid rich" student enabling "smart poor" ones.
zarkov99 8y ago
If the money goes towards scholarships for the deserving but poor its a good trade. Less so if it ends up in the pockets of corrupt paper pushers.
- 0_gravitas 8y ago
  And if I had to bet I would put money on the money not 'trickling down' as we would hope.
  - cshimmin 8y ago
    About 65% of students at Yale receive need-based financial aid from the University. Students coming from households making less than $65k don't pay anything at all for tuition/room/board. So clearly some of that endowment money is "trickling down". Source: https://finaid.yale.edu/costs-affordability/affordability https://finaid.yale.edu/costs-affordability/affordability
    - whatshisface 8y ago
      At the university of Whatshisface, tuition is $10^12/semester, and everyone receives $(10^12-10^3)/semester in needs-based financial aid. I assure you that I have a karmatic license to do anything I want - after all, summed across all students I give more than the GDP of many small countries.
      - cshimmin 8y ago
        Right... From the stats from Yale linked above, the median net cost after financial aid is $12.5k. That's a lot less than I paid to go to a public university. As for a "license to do anything", it's not clear what exactly you're complaining about here? They get some money through non-merit based admissions, sure, and then use the money to build nice things for students, and to help cover most students' tuitions. The point of this thread is that there's a difference between private schools accepting donations for this purpose, vs. corrupt individuals accepting bribes. The latter case benefits only the unmeritious student and the corrupt individual, and not the university has a whole.
burtonator 8y ago
How about completely blind job admissions, school admissions, etc. No names, no race, no age, etc. Just raw test scores. Test them against problem solving skills objectively, etc.
- mehrdadn 8y ago
  I mean this still disadvantages poorer people, who don't have money to fund their kids' preparations for exams. The point of holistic admissions is to try to factor things like that in.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- gph 8y ago
  Goodheart's law. Besides what employer wants to hire someone based just on their intelligence scores? If someone is an uncooperative egoist prick I don't think many companies will want to hire them no matter their test scores.
  - bobthepanda 8y ago
    Pure test prioritization also encourages rote learning and optimizing for the test, which is not great for creativity.
- skrap 8y ago
  Did you read the article? The fixer just paid the folks administering the test to let someone else take it, or to let them fix the answers after the fact. Also, agree with the person who mentioned Goodhart's Law.
- LanceH 8y ago
  Do you really think these schools would have the same prestige and endowments if money and connections didn't get peole in? People want the prestige and connections of a legacy/endowment driven school, but don't seem to realize that it comes with legacy admissions.

massivecali 8y ago

The first is for the benefit of all the other students in the form of reduced tuition grants, a new library, lab equipment etc. The other is for the benefit of the bribe taker. There are lots of situations that elevate X over accomplishment, but this seems like one with actual benefit on a large scale. That said, I hope they all get punished for it.

YeahSureWhyNot 8y ago
I dont think a monetary donation means a new lab or a library for all students to use that otherwise would have not been built. these universities have excess budget and easily afford to carry out new construction and procurement as planned regardless of donations. Im sure if the said parent had not donated the 2.5 million dollars, not a single thing would have been different for the students. not one.
- smallgovt 8y ago
  >> I'm sure if the said parent had not donated the 2.5 million dollars, not a single thing would have been different for the students. Not one. That's definitely false. Most universities tie annual endowment spending to total endowment size. Just because you can't directly tie the dollars to a specific project, doesn't mean it didn't contribute to the general student body's quality of education.
- cshimmin 8y ago
  What are you talking about, of course sourcing new endowments allows them to build more things/provide more services/etc. Approximately half of Yale's operating budget comes from revenue generated by its hospital system (which is a whole 'nother contentious issue, but besides the point). The other half largely comes from drawing a "safe amount" on it's endowment principal, i.e., small enough to be sustainable in the long term without depleting the fund. A relatively small part comes from tuition. Obviously, increasing the endowment (be it $2.5MM or $250MM at a time) increases the amount that can be put towards budgeting in the future -- enabling, for example, the University to grow its student body (which Yale is currently doing) while maintaining the ability to privately subsidize student tuition.
magpi3 8y ago
If the bribe taker donated all of the money to charity, would that make it any less unethical for the University/basketball coach? A bribe is a bribe, and the spot that was taken in the University could have and should have gone to someone more deserving.
- EpicEng 8y ago
  >If the bribe taker donated all of the money to charity, would that make it any less unethical for the University/basketball coach Yes, it would. That wouldn't make it ethical or legal of course.
smallgovt 8y ago
This is a classical "ends justify means" argument. Though most people won't admit it, I think it's a valid argument, but requires a rather perverse value system.
dakial1 8y ago
People who claim that top schools have excess budget have no idea how expensive it is to run them. Pledges are a total ok way of funding scholarships and other benefits for the student community on those schools. One "stupid rich" student enabling "smart poor" ones.

zarkov99 8y ago

If the money goes towards scholarships for the deserving but poor its a good trade. Less so if it ends up in the pockets of corrupt paper pushers.

0_gravitas 8y ago
And if I had to bet I would put money on the money not 'trickling down' as we would hope.
- cshimmin 8y ago
  About 65% of students at Yale receive need-based financial aid from the University. Students coming from households making less than $65k don't pay anything at all for tuition/room/board. So clearly some of that endowment money is "trickling down". Source: https://finaid.yale.edu/costs-affordability/affordability https://finaid.yale.edu/costs-affordability/affordability
  - whatshisface 8y ago
    At the university of Whatshisface, tuition is $10^12/semester, and everyone receives $(10^12-10^3)/semester in needs-based financial aid. I assure you that I have a karmatic license to do anything I want - after all, summed across all students I give more than the GDP of many small countries.
    - cshimmin 8y ago
      Right... From the stats from Yale linked above, the median net cost after financial aid is $12.5k. That's a lot less than I paid to go to a public university. As for a "license to do anything", it's not clear what exactly you're complaining about here? They get some money through non-merit based admissions, sure, and then use the money to build nice things for students, and to help cover most students' tuitions. The point of this thread is that there's a difference between private schools accepting donations for this purpose, vs. corrupt individuals accepting bribes. The latter case benefits only the unmeritious student and the corrupt individual, and not the university has a whole.

burtonator 8y ago

How about completely blind job admissions, school admissions, etc. No names, no race, no age, etc. Just raw test scores. Test them against problem solving skills objectively, etc.

mehrdadn 8y ago
I mean this still disadvantages poorer people, who don't have money to fund their kids' preparations for exams. The point of holistic admissions is to try to factor things like that in.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
gph 8y ago
Goodheart's law. Besides what employer wants to hire someone based just on their intelligence scores? If someone is an uncooperative egoist prick I don't think many companies will want to hire them no matter their test scores.
- bobthepanda 8y ago
  Pure test prioritization also encourages rote learning and optimizing for the test, which is not great for creativity.
skrap 8y ago
Did you read the article? The fixer just paid the folks administering the test to let someone else take it, or to let them fix the answers after the fact. Also, agree with the person who mentioned Goodhart's Law.
LanceH 8y ago
Do you really think these schools would have the same prestige and endowments if money and connections didn't get peole in? People want the prestige and connections of a legacy/endowment driven school, but don't seem to realize that it comes with legacy admissions.