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I'm sorry to just repost my paragraph from above, but I believe I already responded to this: > The IF people (along with the Keto people) use a variety of tric

I'm sorry to just repost my paragraph from above, but I believe I already responded to this: > The IF people (along with the Keto people) use a variety of tricks to try and prove their point. There is absolutely not a single paper showing calorically balanced food intake has clinically significant outcomes. Period, full stop etc. There are tons of papers saying things like if you force people to eat in constrained windows they eat fewer calories (or if you force people to eat high fat diets they eat fewer calories etc.). Those are all useful outcomes: they are "compliance hacks." But they idea that any of these are significantly metabolically different is not at all supported by the science. 1. These papers do not show different outcomes with calorically controlled inputs, as I mentioned. One of the tricks used by the IF scientific community is to serve the same number of calories and so it looks like the same number of calories were consumed in the abstract. They never are, because if this did happen it would have massive implications for our understanding of the human body. It would require us to be wrong about a lot of things. 2. There is a difference between statistical significance (which could be, but has not been, shown in calorically controlled diets), and clinical significance (which definitely has not been shown in calorically controlled diets, and likely will not).

whiddershins 8y ago
I agree with everything you are saying and have mostly come to the same conclusions you have except: It’s obviously not true that for any given set of calories consumed the body has only one option of what to do with them. It can build muscle, store fat, repair heart walls, excrete it, and so forth. This is determined by a bunch of factors including hormones. So if hormonal balance or other metabolic behavior is modulated by macro (or micro) nutrient intake, then the calorie emphasis might be overly simplistic.
- wdewind 8y ago
  > It’s obviously not true that for any given set of calories consumed the body has only one option of what to do with them. It can build muscle, store fat, repair heart walls, excrete it, and so forth. Yep, I would not suggest anyone take up a diet of pure sugar, only that if you are trying to use science to set your diet we aren't really confident, at the level of macros, about what makes a difference, but we are very confident about excess calories.
  - whiddershins 8y ago
    Ok, but I know from personal experience that for me, personally, macronutrient ratio and feeding window both, independently and together, have dramatic impact on my physical appearance, energy level, and mental functioning. The way you are wording your comments, someone could come away feeling like these things aren’t really worth considering. It’s like, your comments to me seem like you are technically correct but a person reading them might think “ok, this smart person said the Atkins diet doesn’t really work, it’s all sleight of hand.” That could be counter productive, because the Atkins diet really DOES work for some people. Proving that it’s likely not working for the reason people think it is can be helpful for accuracy’s sake, but depending on delivery can just become discouraging. The missing point is these interventions really can be effective. Why they are effective is more of an intellectual exercise.
otabdeveloper2 8y ago
> They never are, because if this did happen it would have massive implications for our understanding of the human body. It would require us to be wrong about a lot of things. Yeah, welcome to medicine. If you've ever encountered these things in a non-theoretic perspective (i.e., having some condition), you quickly see that doctors don't know shit. Perhaps not surprising, given that human experimentation is taboo. Anyways, how does what you're saying mesh with the fact that extra glucose is stored in your body's reserves while ketones are secreted with urine and breath?
- wdewind 8y ago
  > Yeah, welcome to medicine. If you've ever encountered these things in a non-theoretic perspective (i.e., having some condition), you quickly see that doctors don't know shit. That is, unfortunately, exactly why I am so acquainted with this stuff, and yeah, it is pretty frightening to have doctors tell you they just don't know. But to be fair, I'm talking about being wrong about fundamental biology, not medicine, in which massive shake ups like that are far rarer. It's also not like this stuff hasn't been studied. > Anyways, how does what you're saying mesh with the fact that extra glucose is stored in your body's reserves while ketones are secreted with urine and breath? Not sure what you mean but fwiw glucose is also secreted in urine and breath.

whiddershins 8y ago

I agree with everything you are saying and have mostly come to the same conclusions you have except: It’s obviously not true that for any given set of calories consumed the body has only one option of what to do with them. It can build muscle, store fat, repair heart walls, excrete it, and so forth. This is determined by a bunch of factors including hormones. So if hormonal balance or other metabolic behavior is modulated by macro (or micro) nutrient intake, then the calorie emphasis might be overly simplistic.

wdewind 8y ago
> It’s obviously not true that for any given set of calories consumed the body has only one option of what to do with them. It can build muscle, store fat, repair heart walls, excrete it, and so forth. Yep, I would not suggest anyone take up a diet of pure sugar, only that if you are trying to use science to set your diet we aren't really confident, at the level of macros, about what makes a difference, but we are very confident about excess calories.
- whiddershins 8y ago
  Ok, but I know from personal experience that for me, personally, macronutrient ratio and feeding window both, independently and together, have dramatic impact on my physical appearance, energy level, and mental functioning. The way you are wording your comments, someone could come away feeling like these things aren’t really worth considering. It’s like, your comments to me seem like you are technically correct but a person reading them might think “ok, this smart person said the Atkins diet doesn’t really work, it’s all sleight of hand.” That could be counter productive, because the Atkins diet really DOES work for some people. Proving that it’s likely not working for the reason people think it is can be helpful for accuracy’s sake, but depending on delivery can just become discouraging. The missing point is these interventions really can be effective. Why they are effective is more of an intellectual exercise.

otabdeveloper2 8y ago

> They never are, because if this did happen it would have massive implications for our understanding of the human body. It would require us to be wrong about a lot of things. Yeah, welcome to medicine. If you've ever encountered these things in a non-theoretic perspective (i.e., having some condition), you quickly see that doctors don't know shit. Perhaps not surprising, given that human experimentation is taboo. Anyways, how does what you're saying mesh with the fact that extra glucose is stored in your body's reserves while ketones are secreted with urine and breath?

wdewind 8y ago
> Yeah, welcome to medicine. If you've ever encountered these things in a non-theoretic perspective (i.e., having some condition), you quickly see that doctors don't know shit. That is, unfortunately, exactly why I am so acquainted with this stuff, and yeah, it is pretty frightening to have doctors tell you they just don't know. But to be fair, I'm talking about being wrong about fundamental biology, not medicine, in which massive shake ups like that are far rarer. It's also not like this stuff hasn't been studied. > Anyways, how does what you're saying mesh with the fact that extra glucose is stored in your body's reserves while ketones are secreted with urine and breath? Not sure what you mean but fwiw glucose is also secreted in urine and breath.