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Have we as a community decided that newsguard is anything but trash? Why would any of us be willing to submit ourselves to “censorship as a service”? If anythi

Have we as a community decided that newsguard is anything but trash? Why would any of us be willing to submit ourselves to “censorship as a service”? If anything, we need to be breaking apart these types of technological control software. I don’t want anything to do with “newsguard” and I urge others to take a critical eye on that idea as well.

tptacek 8y ago
Indeed, why trust any experts on anything? We should do the legwork, all of it, for every decision we make. Vaccines? I want to see it kill a polio and then not make an autism. The earth? Sure looks flat to me. Can you prove it's round? Then show me how to do it, so I can prove it to myself? Taking other people's word for it is just censoring alternative points of view. This is America. I don't want anything to do with censorship.
- dev_dull 8y ago
  Newsguard is a technology meant to control what people see, read, and ultimately think. If you don’t immediately see the dangers of that type of technology then I’m not sure what will convince you otherwise.
  - tptacek 8y ago
    That is exactly what antivax people say about vaccination campaigns. I'm not saying you should trust NewsGuard. I don't know much about them! But the categorical alarm you take to the entire concept of independent news vetting is problematic.
    - paper-plate 8y ago
      You are a spook, tptacek.
  - tivert 8y ago
    > Newsguard is a technology meant to control what people see, read, and ultimately think. If you don’t immediately see the dangers of that type of technology then I’m not sure what will convince you otherwise. The problems aren't all one one side. There are problems with having technology like Newsguard, and there are problem with not having technology like it. Just today, I came across the phenomenon of partisan propaganda masquerading as local journalism (https://www.snopes.com/news/2019/03/04/activists-setup-local-news-sites/ https://www.snopes.com/news/2019/03/04/activists-setup-local...). I've never used Newsguard, but I really hope it flags stuff like "The Tennessee Star." It'd be a clue to question the source more, and God knows we need more clues to get through our hurried, overloaded lives.
  - johnsterling 8y ago
    NewsGuar doesn't block any content. It provides ratings of news sites. How does that control what people see, read, and ultimately think? It doesn't even verify or refute specific stories, just overall publication credibility. It's also not really technology. It's a bunch of journalists doing ratings. Technology is just how they disseminate the ratings, but a lot different (and more accountable) than some kind of AI that tries to do this.
- gabbygab 8y ago
  We aren't talking about objective empirical science. We are talking about partial, subjective and biased media. NewsGuard was created by media insiders with funding from media insider foundations. There is most definitely cause for worry there. Would you say china's media "experts" should control what the chinese citizens see? Would you say the same about russia, europe or anywhere in the world? Blind appeal to authority is just as bad as blindly ignoring authority. I'm not saying I have the answers here. I don't know what the solution is. But I'm certain either extreme is bad for society.
  - tptacek 8y ago
    The argument I responded to, as I read it, is that you can't trust any organization to evaluate news sources. That can't be true. I don't so much care about NewsGuard --- I don't use it --- but we delegate all kinds of judgements, many more important than this one --- to experts, for good reason. By all means, pick NewsGuard apart.
    - patrec 8y ago
      Maybe we should just directly delegate voting to experts? Or are you saying that you can't trust any organization to evaluate political candidates and programs? That can't be true. We delegate all kinds of judgements, many more important than voting to experts, for good reason.
      - tptacek 8y ago
        In general, we do delegate voting to experts: we vote for the nominees of our preferred parties. Note that I'm not saying you should be forced to do that, just that there's nothing intrinsically wrong with it.
        patrec 8y ago
        The "preferred parties" is a bit of a sleight of hand here. Why not delegate the choice what party you should prefer to experts, too? Works for China!
- a_tractor 8y ago
  >Can you prove it's round? Then show me how to do it, so I can prove it to myself? This is what happened originally, so why is this unreasonable? Was this not done for you in some way before you accepted the fact of the world being round? >Taking other people's word for it is just censoring alternative points of view What a terrible straw man. >This is America. I don't want anything to do with censorship. Yeah. Right. And?
- camelite 8y ago
  Newsguard aren't experts, their results are trash.
- HNContentMod 8y ago
  Yes, it can be scientifically proven which point of view is correct so rejecting a news filter that flags the unscientific viewpoint is actually anti-science.
sleepysysadmin 8y ago
>Have we as a community decided that newsguard isn’t anything but trash? Why would any of us be willing to submit ourselves to “censorship as a service”? Worth to look at their sources. But go look at their sources. Virtually all the links dont cover any zerohedge content. I'm of the opinion newsguard is trash.

tptacek 8y ago

Indeed, why trust any experts on anything? We should do the legwork, all of it, for every decision we make. Vaccines? I want to see it kill a polio and then not make an autism. The earth? Sure looks flat to me. Can you prove it's round? Then show me how to do it, so I can prove it to myself? Taking other people's word for it is just censoring alternative points of view. This is America. I don't want anything to do with censorship.

dev_dull 8y ago
Newsguard is a technology meant to control what people see, read, and ultimately think. If you don’t immediately see the dangers of that type of technology then I’m not sure what will convince you otherwise.
- tptacek 8y ago
  That is exactly what antivax people say about vaccination campaigns. I'm not saying you should trust NewsGuard. I don't know much about them! But the categorical alarm you take to the entire concept of independent news vetting is problematic.
  - paper-plate 8y ago
    You are a spook, tptacek.
- tivert 8y ago
  > Newsguard is a technology meant to control what people see, read, and ultimately think. If you don’t immediately see the dangers of that type of technology then I’m not sure what will convince you otherwise. The problems aren't all one one side. There are problems with having technology like Newsguard, and there are problem with not having technology like it. Just today, I came across the phenomenon of partisan propaganda masquerading as local journalism (https://www.snopes.com/news/2019/03/04/activists-setup-local-news-sites/ https://www.snopes.com/news/2019/03/04/activists-setup-local...). I've never used Newsguard, but I really hope it flags stuff like "The Tennessee Star." It'd be a clue to question the source more, and God knows we need more clues to get through our hurried, overloaded lives.
- johnsterling 8y ago
  NewsGuar doesn't block any content. It provides ratings of news sites. How does that control what people see, read, and ultimately think? It doesn't even verify or refute specific stories, just overall publication credibility. It's also not really technology. It's a bunch of journalists doing ratings. Technology is just how they disseminate the ratings, but a lot different (and more accountable) than some kind of AI that tries to do this.
gabbygab 8y ago
We aren't talking about objective empirical science. We are talking about partial, subjective and biased media. NewsGuard was created by media insiders with funding from media insider foundations. There is most definitely cause for worry there. Would you say china's media "experts" should control what the chinese citizens see? Would you say the same about russia, europe or anywhere in the world? Blind appeal to authority is just as bad as blindly ignoring authority. I'm not saying I have the answers here. I don't know what the solution is. But I'm certain either extreme is bad for society.
- tptacek 8y ago
  The argument I responded to, as I read it, is that you can't trust any organization to evaluate news sources. That can't be true. I don't so much care about NewsGuard --- I don't use it --- but we delegate all kinds of judgements, many more important than this one --- to experts, for good reason. By all means, pick NewsGuard apart.
  - patrec 8y ago
    Maybe we should just directly delegate voting to experts? Or are you saying that you can't trust any organization to evaluate political candidates and programs? That can't be true. We delegate all kinds of judgements, many more important than voting to experts, for good reason.
    - tptacek 8y ago
      In general, we do delegate voting to experts: we vote for the nominees of our preferred parties. Note that I'm not saying you should be forced to do that, just that there's nothing intrinsically wrong with it.
      - patrec 8y ago
        The "preferred parties" is a bit of a sleight of hand here. Why not delegate the choice what party you should prefer to experts, too? Works for China!
a_tractor 8y ago
>Can you prove it's round? Then show me how to do it, so I can prove it to myself? This is what happened originally, so why is this unreasonable? Was this not done for you in some way before you accepted the fact of the world being round? >Taking other people's word for it is just censoring alternative points of view What a terrible straw man. >This is America. I don't want anything to do with censorship. Yeah. Right. And?
camelite 8y ago
Newsguard aren't experts, their results are trash.
HNContentMod 8y ago
Yes, it can be scientifically proven which point of view is correct so rejecting a news filter that flags the unscientific viewpoint is actually anti-science.

sleepysysadmin 8y ago

>Have we as a community decided that newsguard isn’t anything but trash? Why would any of us be willing to submit ourselves to “censorship as a service”? Worth to look at their sources. But go look at their sources. Virtually all the links dont cover any zerohedge content. I'm of the opinion newsguard is trash.