6 ms·

Could an Eye Doctor Diagnose Alzheimer’s Before You Have Symptoms?

76 points by Gys 8y ago

est31 8y ago
I've read that before there is tissue decay, which this test would be for, there's a preceeding biochemical phase: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2819840/figure/F2/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2819840/figure/...
lugg 8y ago
Type 3 diabetes.
- echelon 8y ago
  I'm not sure why you're being downvoted, other than perhaps the terseness of your response. There is research that hypothesizes that Alzheimer's is like diabetes in that it manifests itself as a dysfunction of insulin/glucose regulation.
  - whatshisface 8y ago
    Yes, the symptom described in the article is congruent with the diabetic theory because loss of small blood vessels is also a symptom of diabetes.
k_sze 8y ago
The title is kinda wrong. Loss of blood vessel is just yet another symptom.
- melling 8y ago
  Yes, however, finding an early symptom, particularly a decade early, would be an incredible find. If we could detect pancreatic cancer early, for example, would could go from a 7% survival to 90% rate.
  - faceplanted 8y ago
    Can we not detect it early? Or do we just not run the tests? Like if everyone got regular MRI scans (I know, expensive, but it's a hypothetical) could we do the same thing?
    - SolaceQuantum 8y ago
      As far as I understand it, the area of the pancreas can often be difficult to detect cancer in- and particularly the area has a lot of space for metastasis.(I’m not a trained medical professional so if my words are contradicted by anyone who is, please ignore me entirely.) I’m under the impression MRI scans have two main issues with them: 1. A trained radiologist can still miss small tumors, and it is in fact quite easy to miss them. The body is complicated and all sort stuff of weirdnesses can occur that are not harmful.(eg. Benign tumors) 2. It is possible that the discovery of a tumor doesn’t mean cancer. This was a debate in breast cancer treatments- a lot of heartache and suffering can occur from a cancer scare and there has been existing controversy regarding early testing given this.
      - carlmr 8y ago
        3. Radiation from breast cancer scans can cause the breast cancer in the first place: https://annals.org/aim/fullarticle/2480762/radiation-induced-breast-cancer-incidence-mortality-from-digital-mammography-screening https://annals.org/aim/fullarticle/2480762/radiation-induced...
        riahi 8y ago
        That study is entirely based off simulation with the ultimate data being derived from survivors from Hiroshima and Nagasaki bonbings. We do not categorically know if there is a linear, no threshhold relationship between diagnostic radiation dose and cancer induction or if there is a threshhold dose below which radiation dose is “safe”. We also don’t know if low-level radiation is potentially beneficial (radiation Hormesis hypothesis). That’s a lot of words to say, take that paper with a huge grain of salt.
- rdruxn 8y ago
  Captain pedantic here, but it's a sign, not a symptom.
  - bookofjoe 8y ago
    My med school mnemonic: Patients report symptoms, then doctors see signs.
hihungryimdad 8y ago
Definitely interested in this. I had my genome sequenced at 23andme and they say I am at a higher risk for early onset Alzheimer's (My parents and grandparents were/are fine) because I have the two mutations they test for. Just last year I was diagnosed with glaucoma, at the ripe age of 32. So I go to the eye doctor somewhat regularly now. Wonder if this is something I can start keeping track of, for science, or something.
- gwbas1c 8y ago
  > sequenced at 23andme Be careful. My wife, a geneticist, calls 23andme "for entertainment purposes only."
  - corndoge 8y ago
    No offense, but your wife's opinion isn't really worth anything stated unqualified like that
    - Not_a_pizza 8y ago
      But then maybe she's onto something. Some Genetic Tests Apparently Can’t Tell If You’re Dog Or Human https://futurism.com/home-genetics-test-dog-human https://futurism.com/home-genetics-test-dog-human How DNA Testing Botched My Family's Heritage, and Probably Yours, Too https://gizmodo.com/how-dna-testing-botched-my-familys-heritage-and-probab-1820932637 https://gizmodo.com/how-dna-testing-botched-my-familys-herit... I Took 9 Different Commercial DNA Tests and Got 6 Different Results https://www.livescience.com/63997-dna-ancestry-test-results-explained.html https://www.livescience.com/63997-dna-ancestry-test-results-... How Accurate Are Online DNA Tests? (Betteridge's Law of Headlines might still somewhat play into this one.) https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-accurate-are-online-dna-tests/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-accurate-are-... Consumer DNA Tests Are Wrong 40 Percent of the Time https://www.geek.com/science/study-consumer-dna-tests-are-wrong-40-percent-of-the-time-1735529/ https://www.geek.com/science/study-consumer-dna-tests-are-wr... Consumer Affairs' 23 and me rating (1.5/5 stars) https://www.consumeraffairs.com/health/23andme.html https://www.consumeraffairs.com/health/23andme.html The words "Fly By Night" definitely come to mind. Combine that with ongoing privacy murkiness, and 23andme is basically the medical version of Facebook. https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/16/5-biggest-risks-of-sharing-dna-with-consumer-genetic-testing-companies.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/16/5-biggest-risks-of-sharing-d...
ConcernedCoder 8y ago
Not mentioned is the problem with prions and eye examinations as a possible infection route: https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/eyes-cjd-patients-show-evidence-prions https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/eyes-cjd-patie...
nareiber 8y ago
Anyone in the field know if lattice degeneration would be considered 'loss of blood vessels in the retina' this study is looking for?

76 points by Gys 8y ago

I've read that before there is tissue decay, which this test would be for, there's a preceeding biochemical phase: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2819840/figure/F2/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2819840/figure/...

lugg 8y ago

Type 3 diabetes.

echelon 8y ago
I'm not sure why you're being downvoted, other than perhaps the terseness of your response. There is research that hypothesizes that Alzheimer's is like diabetes in that it manifests itself as a dysfunction of insulin/glucose regulation.
- whatshisface 8y ago
  Yes, the symptom described in the article is congruent with the diabetic theory because loss of small blood vessels is also a symptom of diabetes.

k_sze 8y ago

The title is kinda wrong. Loss of blood vessel is just yet another symptom.

melling 8y ago
Yes, however, finding an early symptom, particularly a decade early, would be an incredible find. If we could detect pancreatic cancer early, for example, would could go from a 7% survival to 90% rate.
- faceplanted 8y ago
  Can we not detect it early? Or do we just not run the tests? Like if everyone got regular MRI scans (I know, expensive, but it's a hypothetical) could we do the same thing?
  - SolaceQuantum 8y ago
    As far as I understand it, the area of the pancreas can often be difficult to detect cancer in- and particularly the area has a lot of space for metastasis.(I’m not a trained medical professional so if my words are contradicted by anyone who is, please ignore me entirely.) I’m under the impression MRI scans have two main issues with them: 1. A trained radiologist can still miss small tumors, and it is in fact quite easy to miss them. The body is complicated and all sort stuff of weirdnesses can occur that are not harmful.(eg. Benign tumors) 2. It is possible that the discovery of a tumor doesn’t mean cancer. This was a debate in breast cancer treatments- a lot of heartache and suffering can occur from a cancer scare and there has been existing controversy regarding early testing given this.
    - carlmr 8y ago
      3. Radiation from breast cancer scans can cause the breast cancer in the first place: https://annals.org/aim/fullarticle/2480762/radiation-induced-breast-cancer-incidence-mortality-from-digital-mammography-screening https://annals.org/aim/fullarticle/2480762/radiation-induced...
      - riahi 8y ago
        That study is entirely based off simulation with the ultimate data being derived from survivors from Hiroshima and Nagasaki bonbings. We do not categorically know if there is a linear, no threshhold relationship between diagnostic radiation dose and cancer induction or if there is a threshhold dose below which radiation dose is “safe”. We also don’t know if low-level radiation is potentially beneficial (radiation Hormesis hypothesis). That’s a lot of words to say, take that paper with a huge grain of salt.
rdruxn 8y ago
Captain pedantic here, but it's a sign, not a symptom.
- bookofjoe 8y ago
  My med school mnemonic: Patients report symptoms, then doctors see signs.

hihungryimdad 8y ago

Definitely interested in this. I had my genome sequenced at 23andme and they say I am at a higher risk for early onset Alzheimer's (My parents and grandparents were/are fine) because I have the two mutations they test for. Just last year I was diagnosed with glaucoma, at the ripe age of 32. So I go to the eye doctor somewhat regularly now. Wonder if this is something I can start keeping track of, for science, or something.

gwbas1c 8y ago
> sequenced at 23andme Be careful. My wife, a geneticist, calls 23andme "for entertainment purposes only."
- corndoge 8y ago
  No offense, but your wife's opinion isn't really worth anything stated unqualified like that
  - Not_a_pizza 8y ago
    But then maybe she's onto something. Some Genetic Tests Apparently Can’t Tell If You’re Dog Or Human https://futurism.com/home-genetics-test-dog-human https://futurism.com/home-genetics-test-dog-human How DNA Testing Botched My Family's Heritage, and Probably Yours, Too https://gizmodo.com/how-dna-testing-botched-my-familys-heritage-and-probab-1820932637 https://gizmodo.com/how-dna-testing-botched-my-familys-herit... I Took 9 Different Commercial DNA Tests and Got 6 Different Results https://www.livescience.com/63997-dna-ancestry-test-results-explained.html https://www.livescience.com/63997-dna-ancestry-test-results-... How Accurate Are Online DNA Tests? (Betteridge's Law of Headlines might still somewhat play into this one.) https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-accurate-are-online-dna-tests/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-accurate-are-... Consumer DNA Tests Are Wrong 40 Percent of the Time https://www.geek.com/science/study-consumer-dna-tests-are-wrong-40-percent-of-the-time-1735529/ https://www.geek.com/science/study-consumer-dna-tests-are-wr... Consumer Affairs' 23 and me rating (1.5/5 stars) https://www.consumeraffairs.com/health/23andme.html https://www.consumeraffairs.com/health/23andme.html The words "Fly By Night" definitely come to mind. Combine that with ongoing privacy murkiness, and 23andme is basically the medical version of Facebook. https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/16/5-biggest-risks-of-sharing-dna-with-consumer-genetic-testing-companies.html https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/16/5-biggest-risks-of-sharing-d...

ConcernedCoder 8y ago

Not mentioned is the problem with prions and eye examinations as a possible infection route: https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/eyes-cjd-patients-show-evidence-prions https://www.nih.gov/news-events/news-releases/eyes-cjd-patie...

nareiber 8y ago

Anyone in the field know if lattice degeneration would be considered 'loss of blood vessels in the retina' this study is looking for?