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As with many arguments on this site, and the discourse on trans issues as a whole, I doubt either of us are willing to budge enough on this issue to make debate

As with many arguments on this site, and the discourse on trans issues as a whole, I doubt either of us are willing to budge enough on this issue to make debate worthwhile. I'm trans, and I've been on the receiving end of parental coercion. You're possibly a parent of a gender non-conforming child, or had a phase you grew out of as a kid, etc. In about 18 years, if I'm right, a score of resentful GNC children forced into therapy by their parents will cut off their families and transition on their own. If you're right, a large number of children who transitioned during puberty will have major regrets. Either way, there's no point wasting time debating this. Neither of our sides are going to convince each other. Just do what you have to, and I'll do the same, and we'll watch and wait.

nkurz 8y ago
> Either way, there's no point wasting time debating this. I don't think it was a waste. As an interested onlooker, I thought your exchange was useful to read. I tend to agree with 'erentz', but I thank you for taking the time to share your expert perspective. Please keep doing so.
dragonwriter 8y ago
> In about 18 years, if I'm right, a score of resentful GNC children forced into therapy by their parents will cut off their families and transition on their own. If you're right, a large number of children who transitioned during puberty will have major regrets. I think that's an excessively binary view: those aren't mutually exclusive. In fact, I'd go so far as to say I think the most likely scenario is that those both will occur. Here's how they could: Suppose a large portion of childhood gender dysphoria is, let's call it, “fundamental transgender identity”, that can only be resolved durably by transitioning. Suppose another large portion is socially-induced tension between gender stereotypes, most dominantly between heteronormative stereotypes and homosexual or bisexual orientation, that is best resolved durably by recognizing that confirming to gender stereotypes,and particularly heteronormative stereotypes, is not necessary when identifying with a gender, though it may be mitigated, especially in the short-term, by gender transition. Suppose that there is therapy that is very effective, in children, at helping the latter resolve ideally. But suppose further that children whose dysphoria is of the first kind subjected to that same therapy often conform to the perceived pressure of the therapy by abandoning transition and conforming to the perceived expectation of identifying with their birth gender. Suppose further that distinguishing the two kinds of dysphoria is difficult even within the context of the therapy, and suppose further that the therapy itself is controversial in a way tied largely to controversy over what the predominant (or, as many people view it, exclusive) source of gender dysphoria is, so that there is Both a large subset of gender dysphoric use that are given the therapy and a large subset that aren't, but these subsets have no particular alignment with the actual source of dysphoria. You'd then expect, down the road, to have four large clusters (there's actually more, because you also have the atypical responded to therapy or it's absence to consider) of adults who had been gender dysphoric children: (1) a group with fundamental transgender identity that were not treated and transitioned, resolving the dysphoria as best as is practical. (2) a group with fundamental transgender identity subjected to the therapy and so did not transition, with issues resulting from ongoing unresolved dysphoria. (3) a group without fundamental transgender identity that did not receive the therapy and transitioned to resolve their dysphoria, who now regret the transition. (4) a group without fundamental transgender identity who did receive the therapy, and resolved the tension with gender norms without transition.
erentz 8y ago
It was a good discussion thanks. We had some different definitions of words and terms. But we're probably broadly on the same page on about 80% of the matter. I hope we don't have to wait 18 years, I hope we can work out how to help children with gender dysphoria sooner without harming trans kids and non trans kids in the process. Coercion is never a good thing, and I'm sorry you had that experience with your parents.

nkurz 8y ago

> Either way, there's no point wasting time debating this. I don't think it was a waste. As an interested onlooker, I thought your exchange was useful to read. I tend to agree with 'erentz', but I thank you for taking the time to share your expert perspective. Please keep doing so.

dragonwriter 8y ago

> In about 18 years, if I'm right, a score of resentful GNC children forced into therapy by their parents will cut off their families and transition on their own. If you're right, a large number of children who transitioned during puberty will have major regrets. I think that's an excessively binary view: those aren't mutually exclusive. In fact, I'd go so far as to say I think the most likely scenario is that those both will occur. Here's how they could: Suppose a large portion of childhood gender dysphoria is, let's call it, “fundamental transgender identity”, that can only be resolved durably by transitioning. Suppose another large portion is socially-induced tension between gender stereotypes, most dominantly between heteronormative stereotypes and homosexual or bisexual orientation, that is best resolved durably by recognizing that confirming to gender stereotypes,and particularly heteronormative stereotypes, is not necessary when identifying with a gender, though it may be mitigated, especially in the short-term, by gender transition. Suppose that there is therapy that is very effective, in children, at helping the latter resolve ideally. But suppose further that children whose dysphoria is of the first kind subjected to that same therapy often conform to the perceived pressure of the therapy by abandoning transition and conforming to the perceived expectation of identifying with their birth gender. Suppose further that distinguishing the two kinds of dysphoria is difficult even within the context of the therapy, and suppose further that the therapy itself is controversial in a way tied largely to controversy over what the predominant (or, as many people view it, exclusive) source of gender dysphoria is, so that there is Both a large subset of gender dysphoric use that are given the therapy and a large subset that aren't, but these subsets have no particular alignment with the actual source of dysphoria. You'd then expect, down the road, to have four large clusters (there's actually more, because you also have the atypical responded to therapy or it's absence to consider) of adults who had been gender dysphoric children: (1) a group with fundamental transgender identity that were not treated and transitioned, resolving the dysphoria as best as is practical. (2) a group with fundamental transgender identity subjected to the therapy and so did not transition, with issues resulting from ongoing unresolved dysphoria. (3) a group without fundamental transgender identity that did not receive the therapy and transitioned to resolve their dysphoria, who now regret the transition. (4) a group without fundamental transgender identity who did receive the therapy, and resolved the tension with gender norms without transition.

erentz 8y ago

It was a good discussion thanks. We had some different definitions of words and terms. But we're probably broadly on the same page on about 80% of the matter. I hope we don't have to wait 18 years, I hope we can work out how to help children with gender dysphoria sooner without harming trans kids and non trans kids in the process. Coercion is never a good thing, and I'm sorry you had that experience with your parents.