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Ok, so it's agreed she is against conversion therapy where conversion therapy is forced change of sexual orientation. > Your source: ... Gender identity, howev

by erentz 8y ago

Ok, so it's agreed she is against conversion therapy where conversion therapy is forced change of sexual orientation. > Your source: ... Gender identity, however—whether someone feels masculine or feminine—is flexible in prepubescent children and grows more stable into adulthood. This is one paragraph where she simply seems to be asserting that gender identity is more flexible during childhood and tends to solidify as we grow into adults. This is a different paragraph from this: > Therapy that seeks to help gender dysphoric children grow comfortable in their birth sex (known in the research literature as the “therapeutic approach”) has been conflated with conversion therapy, but this is inaccurate. Which is the crux of the issue (I think?). Therapy helping children be comfortable with their birth sex is something she advocates, but some people feel that is negative and (somehow?) forceful and are labeling "conversion therapy". I'm lost there because we should all hope to be comfortable in the skin we're born in. I wouldn't want to deny a child therapy to help them with that. And I wouldn't want to deny an adult the same therapy. It's freedom enabling. We've been fighting that fight a long time and don't want to wind back that clock. This reads more like anti-conversion therapy (a kind of "dude, you're cool just as you are, if you can make it work as you first"). Where the alternative is to just be uncomfortable in the skin you're in until you transition. And then that's a problem because: > All of the available research following gender dysphoric children longitudinally shows that the majority desist; they outgrow their feelings of dysphoria by puberty and grow up to be gay in adulthood, not transgender. This seems to be a pretty important claim if the wellbeing of the child is of concern here. From this fairly short dive so far, it seems Dr Soh's position clearly comes from one of genuine concern for children and one based on scientific research. Based on that and a general precautionary principal she's advocating therapy to help children be comfortable with the skin they're in first, particularly before giving a child puberty blockers or hormone therapy.

sterlind 8y ago
As with many arguments on this site, and the discourse on trans issues as a whole, I doubt either of us are willing to budge enough on this issue to make debate worthwhile. I'm trans, and I've been on the receiving end of parental coercion. You're possibly a parent of a gender non-conforming child, or had a phase you grew out of as a kid, etc. In about 18 years, if I'm right, a score of resentful GNC children forced into therapy by their parents will cut off their families and transition on their own. If you're right, a large number of children who transitioned during puberty will have major regrets. Either way, there's no point wasting time debating this. Neither of our sides are going to convince each other. Just do what you have to, and I'll do the same, and we'll watch and wait.
- nkurz 8y ago
  > Either way, there's no point wasting time debating this. I don't think it was a waste. As an interested onlooker, I thought your exchange was useful to read. I tend to agree with 'erentz', but I thank you for taking the time to share your expert perspective. Please keep doing so.
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > In about 18 years, if I'm right, a score of resentful GNC children forced into therapy by their parents will cut off their families and transition on their own. If you're right, a large number of children who transitioned during puberty will have major regrets. I think that's an excessively binary view: those aren't mutually exclusive. In fact, I'd go so far as to say I think the most likely scenario is that those both will occur. Here's how they could: Suppose a large portion of childhood gender dysphoria is, let's call it, “fundamental transgender identity”, that can only be resolved durably by transitioning. Suppose another large portion is socially-induced tension between gender stereotypes, most dominantly between heteronormative stereotypes and homosexual or bisexual orientation, that is best resolved durably by recognizing that confirming to gender stereotypes,and particularly heteronormative stereotypes, is not necessary when identifying with a gender, though it may be mitigated, especially in the short-term, by gender transition. Suppose that there is therapy that is very effective, in children, at helping the latter resolve ideally. But suppose further that children whose dysphoria is of the first kind subjected to that same therapy often conform to the perceived pressure of the therapy by abandoning transition and conforming to the perceived expectation of identifying with their birth gender. Suppose further that distinguishing the two kinds of dysphoria is difficult even within the context of the therapy, and suppose further that the therapy itself is controversial in a way tied largely to controversy over what the predominant (or, as many people view it, exclusive) source of gender dysphoria is, so that there is Both a large subset of gender dysphoric use that are given the therapy and a large subset that aren't, but these subsets have no particular alignment with the actual source of dysphoria. You'd then expect, down the road, to have four large clusters (there's actually more, because you also have the atypical responded to therapy or it's absence to consider) of adults who had been gender dysphoric children: (1) a group with fundamental transgender identity that were not treated and transitioned, resolving the dysphoria as best as is practical. (2) a group with fundamental transgender identity subjected to the therapy and so did not transition, with issues resulting from ongoing unresolved dysphoria. (3) a group without fundamental transgender identity that did not receive the therapy and transitioned to resolve their dysphoria, who now regret the transition. (4) a group without fundamental transgender identity who did receive the therapy, and resolved the tension with gender norms without transition.
klyrs 8y ago
> Therapy helping children be comfortable with their birth sex is something she advocates, but some people feel that is negative and (somehow?) forceful and are labeling "conversion therapy". Well, what you're describing is therapy which is geared towards "curing" kids of their trans-ness. It's an attempt to teach kids to convince them that it's better to not transition. It's couched in a positive framing "...comfortable with their birth sex..." and I could describe sexuality conversion therapy as "therapy helping gay folks be comfortable with heterosexual partners." The reason that people are calling this "conversion therapy" is that's what it is. > From this fairly short dive so far, it seems Dr Soh's position clearly comes from one of genuine concern for children and one based on scientific research. Based on that and a general precautionary principal she's advocating therapy to help children be comfortable with the skin they're in first, particularly before giving a child puberty blockers or hormone therapy. I agree, it does appear that Soh's position is motivated by concern for children. However, it's heavily biased towards better outcomes for cisgender children, disregarding the outcomes for transgender children who will inevitably be traumatized by years of therapy geared at convincing them that they aren't who they know they are. For the children who do go on puberty blockers, and decide to retransition later, there isn't a ton of regret -- they drop the blockers and have puberty a little later in life. It's a middle-of-the-road option that minimizes harm across both populations.
- erentz 8y ago
  > describe sexuality conversion therapy as "therapy helping gay folks be comfortable with heterosexual partners." Quoting the Wikipedia definition: "Conversion therapy is the pseudoscientific practice of trying to change an individual's sexual orientation from homosexual or bisexual to heterosexual using psychological or spiritual interventions." Conversion therapy has a long and ugly history and is well defined. What we are talking about here is not that. Clearly conversion therapy is expressly negative. It tells a person that their hard wired sexuality that comes from birth is wrong and that they need to change something that can't be changed. This isn't the same as the therapy being described by Dr Soh, which appears to be more akin to "you're okay as you are and do not need to change." There seems to be an attempt to redefine conversion therapy to extend it to a different case. I think we would be better served by a new term for this kind of therapy. This thread started because someone labelled Dr Soh as a supporter of conversion therapy, which has a specific meaning. They did this as an ad hominem attack because conversion therapy is widely felt to be disgusting. The purpose was to get people not to read or consider this article, and the article was not even on a trans subject. We found no evidence that she supports conversion therapy. > However, it's heavily biased towards better outcomes for cisgender children, disregarding the outcomes for transgender children who will inevitably be traumatized by years of therapy geared at convincing them that they aren't who they know they are. You're asserting Dr Soh is advocating traumatizing children for years to convince them to be something they aren't? We have no evidence of that. We can all agree any therapy that traumatizes a child is not good therapy. That's a terrible fucking therapist. I suspect Dr Soh agrees with that too. How do we separate a child who has gender dysphoria and thinks they need to transition but will later change their mind from a child who has gender dysphoria and really was born in the wrong body? Is it possible to provide therapy to the gender dysphoric child who later doesn't want to change, without harming the gender dysphoric child that does later want to change? It's easy with homosexuality, because the principal we can apply is simply not to interfere and to allow the child to accept themselves and their sexual feelings as they are. No reasonable people think this is bad. What's the equivalent safe approach for helping children with gender dysphoria? No therapy? Years of therapy geared at reinforcing that they must change their sex to be happy? This is nowhere near as cut and dry as the case homosexuality and conversion therapy.

by erentz 8y ago

sterlind 8y ago

As with many arguments on this site, and the discourse on trans issues as a whole, I doubt either of us are willing to budge enough on this issue to make debate worthwhile. I'm trans, and I've been on the receiving end of parental coercion. You're possibly a parent of a gender non-conforming child, or had a phase you grew out of as a kid, etc. In about 18 years, if I'm right, a score of resentful GNC children forced into therapy by their parents will cut off their families and transition on their own. If you're right, a large number of children who transitioned during puberty will have major regrets. Either way, there's no point wasting time debating this. Neither of our sides are going to convince each other. Just do what you have to, and I'll do the same, and we'll watch and wait.

nkurz 8y ago
> Either way, there's no point wasting time debating this. I don't think it was a waste. As an interested onlooker, I thought your exchange was useful to read. I tend to agree with 'erentz', but I thank you for taking the time to share your expert perspective. Please keep doing so.
dragonwriter 8y ago
> In about 18 years, if I'm right, a score of resentful GNC children forced into therapy by their parents will cut off their families and transition on their own. If you're right, a large number of children who transitioned during puberty will have major regrets. I think that's an excessively binary view: those aren't mutually exclusive. In fact, I'd go so far as to say I think the most likely scenario is that those both will occur. Here's how they could: Suppose a large portion of childhood gender dysphoria is, let's call it, “fundamental transgender identity”, that can only be resolved durably by transitioning. Suppose another large portion is socially-induced tension between gender stereotypes, most dominantly between heteronormative stereotypes and homosexual or bisexual orientation, that is best resolved durably by recognizing that confirming to gender stereotypes,and particularly heteronormative stereotypes, is not necessary when identifying with a gender, though it may be mitigated, especially in the short-term, by gender transition. Suppose that there is therapy that is very effective, in children, at helping the latter resolve ideally. But suppose further that children whose dysphoria is of the first kind subjected to that same therapy often conform to the perceived pressure of the therapy by abandoning transition and conforming to the perceived expectation of identifying with their birth gender. Suppose further that distinguishing the two kinds of dysphoria is difficult even within the context of the therapy, and suppose further that the therapy itself is controversial in a way tied largely to controversy over what the predominant (or, as many people view it, exclusive) source of gender dysphoria is, so that there is Both a large subset of gender dysphoric use that are given the therapy and a large subset that aren't, but these subsets have no particular alignment with the actual source of dysphoria. You'd then expect, down the road, to have four large clusters (there's actually more, because you also have the atypical responded to therapy or it's absence to consider) of adults who had been gender dysphoric children: (1) a group with fundamental transgender identity that were not treated and transitioned, resolving the dysphoria as best as is practical. (2) a group with fundamental transgender identity subjected to the therapy and so did not transition, with issues resulting from ongoing unresolved dysphoria. (3) a group without fundamental transgender identity that did not receive the therapy and transitioned to resolve their dysphoria, who now regret the transition. (4) a group without fundamental transgender identity who did receive the therapy, and resolved the tension with gender norms without transition.

klyrs 8y ago

> Therapy helping children be comfortable with their birth sex is something she advocates, but some people feel that is negative and (somehow?) forceful and are labeling "conversion therapy". Well, what you're describing is therapy which is geared towards "curing" kids of their trans-ness. It's an attempt to teach kids to convince them that it's better to not transition. It's couched in a positive framing "...comfortable with their birth sex..." and I could describe sexuality conversion therapy as "therapy helping gay folks be comfortable with heterosexual partners." The reason that people are calling this "conversion therapy" is that's what it is. > From this fairly short dive so far, it seems Dr Soh's position clearly comes from one of genuine concern for children and one based on scientific research. Based on that and a general precautionary principal she's advocating therapy to help children be comfortable with the skin they're in first, particularly before giving a child puberty blockers or hormone therapy. I agree, it does appear that Soh's position is motivated by concern for children. However, it's heavily biased towards better outcomes for cisgender children, disregarding the outcomes for transgender children who will inevitably be traumatized by years of therapy geared at convincing them that they aren't who they know they are. For the children who do go on puberty blockers, and decide to retransition later, there isn't a ton of regret -- they drop the blockers and have puberty a little later in life. It's a middle-of-the-road option that minimizes harm across both populations.

erentz 8y ago
> describe sexuality conversion therapy as "therapy helping gay folks be comfortable with heterosexual partners." Quoting the Wikipedia definition: "Conversion therapy is the pseudoscientific practice of trying to change an individual's sexual orientation from homosexual or bisexual to heterosexual using psychological or spiritual interventions." Conversion therapy has a long and ugly history and is well defined. What we are talking about here is not that. Clearly conversion therapy is expressly negative. It tells a person that their hard wired sexuality that comes from birth is wrong and that they need to change something that can't be changed. This isn't the same as the therapy being described by Dr Soh, which appears to be more akin to "you're okay as you are and do not need to change." There seems to be an attempt to redefine conversion therapy to extend it to a different case. I think we would be better served by a new term for this kind of therapy. This thread started because someone labelled Dr Soh as a supporter of conversion therapy, which has a specific meaning. They did this as an ad hominem attack because conversion therapy is widely felt to be disgusting. The purpose was to get people not to read or consider this article, and the article was not even on a trans subject. We found no evidence that she supports conversion therapy. > However, it's heavily biased towards better outcomes for cisgender children, disregarding the outcomes for transgender children who will inevitably be traumatized by years of therapy geared at convincing them that they aren't who they know they are. You're asserting Dr Soh is advocating traumatizing children for years to convince them to be something they aren't? We have no evidence of that. We can all agree any therapy that traumatizes a child is not good therapy. That's a terrible fucking therapist. I suspect Dr Soh agrees with that too. How do we separate a child who has gender dysphoria and thinks they need to transition but will later change their mind from a child who has gender dysphoria and really was born in the wrong body? Is it possible to provide therapy to the gender dysphoric child who later doesn't want to change, without harming the gender dysphoric child that does later want to change? It's easy with homosexuality, because the principal we can apply is simply not to interfere and to allow the child to accept themselves and their sexual feelings as they are. No reasonable people think this is bad. What's the equivalent safe approach for helping children with gender dysphoria? No therapy? Years of therapy geared at reinforcing that they must change their sex to be happy? This is nowhere near as cut and dry as the case homosexuality and conversion therapy.