4 ms·

I do mean that homosexuality is an identity. I do not believe such identities can be chosen. Identities are truths about who you are. Realizing you're gay can t

I do mean that homosexuality is an identity. I do not believe such identities can be chosen. Identities are truths about who you are. Realizing you're gay can take some soul searching, the same way as realizing that you're trans, but it's not something you choose. (Why would you choose it? Take it from me, being trans sucks.) Your source: Conversion therapy seeks to change a person’s sexual orientation. No mental health professional in their right mind conducts this type of therapeutic intervention anymore, because it is understood that sexual orientation is immutable from a very young age. Gender identity, however—whether someone feels masculine or feminine—is flexible in prepubescent children and grows more stable into adulthood. Therapy that seeks to help gender dysphoric children grow comfortable in their birth sex (known in the research literature as the “therapeutic approach”) has been conflated with conversion therapy, but this is inaccurate. All of the available research following gender dysphoric children longitudinally shows that the majority desist; they outgrow their feelings of dysphoria by puberty and grow up to be gay in adulthood, not transgender. Dr. Soh's position is that unlike sexual orientation, which is immutable, gender identity is flexible, and therapy to talk people into growing up to be gay in adulthood, not transgender [direct quote from above!] is ethical. The example she gives about the boy who plays with dolls and insists he's a girl is meant to support that point. As for HRT meaning conversion therapy, she thinks HRT is homophobic, designed to change someone's sexual orientation from gay to straight, by changing their gender. This is laughable, as it's far more difficult being trans (largely because of people like her) and completely ignores gay trans people (like me.)

erentz 8y ago
Ok, so it's agreed she is against conversion therapy where conversion therapy is forced change of sexual orientation. > Your source: ... Gender identity, however—whether someone feels masculine or feminine—is flexible in prepubescent children and grows more stable into adulthood. This is one paragraph where she simply seems to be asserting that gender identity is more flexible during childhood and tends to solidify as we grow into adults. This is a different paragraph from this: > Therapy that seeks to help gender dysphoric children grow comfortable in their birth sex (known in the research literature as the “therapeutic approach”) has been conflated with conversion therapy, but this is inaccurate. Which is the crux of the issue (I think?). Therapy helping children be comfortable with their birth sex is something she advocates, but some people feel that is negative and (somehow?) forceful and are labeling "conversion therapy". I'm lost there because we should all hope to be comfortable in the skin we're born in. I wouldn't want to deny a child therapy to help them with that. And I wouldn't want to deny an adult the same therapy. It's freedom enabling. We've been fighting that fight a long time and don't want to wind back that clock. This reads more like anti-conversion therapy (a kind of "dude, you're cool just as you are, if you can make it work as you first"). Where the alternative is to just be uncomfortable in the skin you're in until you transition. And then that's a problem because: > All of the available research following gender dysphoric children longitudinally shows that the majority desist; they outgrow their feelings of dysphoria by puberty and grow up to be gay in adulthood, not transgender. This seems to be a pretty important claim if the wellbeing of the child is of concern here. From this fairly short dive so far, it seems Dr Soh's position clearly comes from one of genuine concern for children and one based on scientific research. Based on that and a general precautionary principal she's advocating therapy to help children be comfortable with the skin they're in first, particularly before giving a child puberty blockers or hormone therapy.
- sterlind 8y ago
  As with many arguments on this site, and the discourse on trans issues as a whole, I doubt either of us are willing to budge enough on this issue to make debate worthwhile. I'm trans, and I've been on the receiving end of parental coercion. You're possibly a parent of a gender non-conforming child, or had a phase you grew out of as a kid, etc. In about 18 years, if I'm right, a score of resentful GNC children forced into therapy by their parents will cut off their families and transition on their own. If you're right, a large number of children who transitioned during puberty will have major regrets. Either way, there's no point wasting time debating this. Neither of our sides are going to convince each other. Just do what you have to, and I'll do the same, and we'll watch and wait.
  - nkurz 8y ago
    > Either way, there's no point wasting time debating this. I don't think it was a waste. As an interested onlooker, I thought your exchange was useful to read. I tend to agree with 'erentz', but I thank you for taking the time to share your expert perspective. Please keep doing so.
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    > In about 18 years, if I'm right, a score of resentful GNC children forced into therapy by their parents will cut off their families and transition on their own. If you're right, a large number of children who transitioned during puberty will have major regrets. I think that's an excessively binary view: those aren't mutually exclusive. In fact, I'd go so far as to say I think the most likely scenario is that those both will occur. Here's how they could: Suppose a large portion of childhood gender dysphoria is, let's call it, “fundamental transgender identity”, that can only be resolved durably by transitioning. Suppose another large portion is socially-induced tension between gender stereotypes, most dominantly between heteronormative stereotypes and homosexual or bisexual orientation, that is best resolved durably by recognizing that confirming to gender stereotypes,and particularly heteronormative stereotypes, is not necessary when identifying with a gender, though it may be mitigated, especially in the short-term, by gender transition. Suppose that there is therapy that is very effective, in children, at helping the latter resolve ideally. But suppose further that children whose dysphoria is of the first kind subjected to that same therapy often conform to the perceived pressure of the therapy by abandoning transition and conforming to the perceived expectation of identifying with their birth gender. Suppose further that distinguishing the two kinds of dysphoria is difficult even within the context of the therapy, and suppose further that the therapy itself is controversial in a way tied largely to controversy over what the predominant (or, as many people view it, exclusive) source of gender dysphoria is, so that there is Both a large subset of gender dysphoric use that are given the therapy and a large subset that aren't, but these subsets have no particular alignment with the actual source of dysphoria. You'd then expect, down the road, to have four large clusters (there's actually more, because you also have the atypical responded to therapy or it's absence to consider) of adults who had been gender dysphoric children: (1) a group with fundamental transgender identity that were not treated and transitioned, resolving the dysphoria as best as is practical. (2) a group with fundamental transgender identity subjected to the therapy and so did not transition, with issues resulting from ongoing unresolved dysphoria. (3) a group without fundamental transgender identity that did not receive the therapy and transitioned to resolve their dysphoria, who now regret the transition. (4) a group without fundamental transgender identity who did receive the therapy, and resolved the tension with gender norms without transition.
dragonwriter 8y ago
> I do mean that homosexuality is an identity. I do not believe such identities can be chosen. Identities are truths about who you are. Homosexuality is both an identity and a truth about who you are, but the two do not always coincide, and the identity absolutely can be chosen. (Which is why the label “men who have sex with men” [MSM] exists, as a label that is less-offputting and more useful in getting messages—such as health information—to men who have the “truth about who you are” referred to as “homosexuality” but reject the identity of “homosexuality”.) > Dr. Soh's position is that unlike sexual orientation, which is immutable, gender identity is flexible, and therapy to talk people into growing up to be gay in adulthood, not transgender [direct quote from above!] is ethical. That's not a direct quote, it's an interpretation, and I think it's mistaken because it overlooks something that seems to me to me fairly obvious but inconvenient to both sides of the political fight over the fundamental reality or unreality of transgender identity: a substantial portion of gender dysphoria isn't a sex-trait-specific body dysmorphia, it's a conflict between ones preferred modes of personal expression/behavior and social gender images and stereotypes. In a heteronormative social context, individuals the with homosexual tendencies and ideation are going to be prone to experience such a conflict between personal preferences and gender stereotypes, with being accepted as the opposite gender an obvious route to relieving the tension (the same would seem to be true of male bisexuals in a context more accepting of female-female attraction, whether bisexual or homosexual, than male-male attraction.) Therapy to help children recognize whether the source of the tension with ascribed gender is really fundamentally grounded in a conflict of personal preference with heteronormative gender stereotypes will (if it is effective) make it more likely that those for whom that is the source of tension resolve it as homosexual (or maybe bisexual) members of the gender corresponding to their sex identified at birth, but that's not because the therapy is aimed at making them cisgendered gays or bisexuals, by because it enables them to recognize that that is the underlying reality producing their discomfort with societal expectations. This isn't endorsing a kind of conversion therapy as ethical, instead it's recognizing that the way rigid gender roles are imposed by society is often its own kind of undesirable “conversion therapy” that some people need an antidote for.

erentz 8y ago

Ok, so it's agreed she is against conversion therapy where conversion therapy is forced change of sexual orientation. > Your source: ... Gender identity, however—whether someone feels masculine or feminine—is flexible in prepubescent children and grows more stable into adulthood. This is one paragraph where she simply seems to be asserting that gender identity is more flexible during childhood and tends to solidify as we grow into adults. This is a different paragraph from this: > Therapy that seeks to help gender dysphoric children grow comfortable in their birth sex (known in the research literature as the “therapeutic approach”) has been conflated with conversion therapy, but this is inaccurate. Which is the crux of the issue (I think?). Therapy helping children be comfortable with their birth sex is something she advocates, but some people feel that is negative and (somehow?) forceful and are labeling "conversion therapy". I'm lost there because we should all hope to be comfortable in the skin we're born in. I wouldn't want to deny a child therapy to help them with that. And I wouldn't want to deny an adult the same therapy. It's freedom enabling. We've been fighting that fight a long time and don't want to wind back that clock. This reads more like anti-conversion therapy (a kind of "dude, you're cool just as you are, if you can make it work as you first"). Where the alternative is to just be uncomfortable in the skin you're in until you transition. And then that's a problem because: > All of the available research following gender dysphoric children longitudinally shows that the majority desist; they outgrow their feelings of dysphoria by puberty and grow up to be gay in adulthood, not transgender. This seems to be a pretty important claim if the wellbeing of the child is of concern here. From this fairly short dive so far, it seems Dr Soh's position clearly comes from one of genuine concern for children and one based on scientific research. Based on that and a general precautionary principal she's advocating therapy to help children be comfortable with the skin they're in first, particularly before giving a child puberty blockers or hormone therapy.

sterlind 8y ago
As with many arguments on this site, and the discourse on trans issues as a whole, I doubt either of us are willing to budge enough on this issue to make debate worthwhile. I'm trans, and I've been on the receiving end of parental coercion. You're possibly a parent of a gender non-conforming child, or had a phase you grew out of as a kid, etc. In about 18 years, if I'm right, a score of resentful GNC children forced into therapy by their parents will cut off their families and transition on their own. If you're right, a large number of children who transitioned during puberty will have major regrets. Either way, there's no point wasting time debating this. Neither of our sides are going to convince each other. Just do what you have to, and I'll do the same, and we'll watch and wait.
- nkurz 8y ago
  > Either way, there's no point wasting time debating this. I don't think it was a waste. As an interested onlooker, I thought your exchange was useful to read. I tend to agree with 'erentz', but I thank you for taking the time to share your expert perspective. Please keep doing so.
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > In about 18 years, if I'm right, a score of resentful GNC children forced into therapy by their parents will cut off their families and transition on their own. If you're right, a large number of children who transitioned during puberty will have major regrets. I think that's an excessively binary view: those aren't mutually exclusive. In fact, I'd go so far as to say I think the most likely scenario is that those both will occur. Here's how they could: Suppose a large portion of childhood gender dysphoria is, let's call it, “fundamental transgender identity”, that can only be resolved durably by transitioning. Suppose another large portion is socially-induced tension between gender stereotypes, most dominantly between heteronormative stereotypes and homosexual or bisexual orientation, that is best resolved durably by recognizing that confirming to gender stereotypes,and particularly heteronormative stereotypes, is not necessary when identifying with a gender, though it may be mitigated, especially in the short-term, by gender transition. Suppose that there is therapy that is very effective, in children, at helping the latter resolve ideally. But suppose further that children whose dysphoria is of the first kind subjected to that same therapy often conform to the perceived pressure of the therapy by abandoning transition and conforming to the perceived expectation of identifying with their birth gender. Suppose further that distinguishing the two kinds of dysphoria is difficult even within the context of the therapy, and suppose further that the therapy itself is controversial in a way tied largely to controversy over what the predominant (or, as many people view it, exclusive) source of gender dysphoria is, so that there is Both a large subset of gender dysphoric use that are given the therapy and a large subset that aren't, but these subsets have no particular alignment with the actual source of dysphoria. You'd then expect, down the road, to have four large clusters (there's actually more, because you also have the atypical responded to therapy or it's absence to consider) of adults who had been gender dysphoric children: (1) a group with fundamental transgender identity that were not treated and transitioned, resolving the dysphoria as best as is practical. (2) a group with fundamental transgender identity subjected to the therapy and so did not transition, with issues resulting from ongoing unresolved dysphoria. (3) a group without fundamental transgender identity that did not receive the therapy and transitioned to resolve their dysphoria, who now regret the transition. (4) a group without fundamental transgender identity who did receive the therapy, and resolved the tension with gender norms without transition.

dragonwriter 8y ago

> I do mean that homosexuality is an identity. I do not believe such identities can be chosen. Identities are truths about who you are. Homosexuality is both an identity and a truth about who you are, but the two do not always coincide, and the identity absolutely can be chosen. (Which is why the label “men who have sex with men” [MSM] exists, as a label that is less-offputting and more useful in getting messages—such as health information—to men who have the “truth about who you are” referred to as “homosexuality” but reject the identity of “homosexuality”.) > Dr. Soh's position is that unlike sexual orientation, which is immutable, gender identity is flexible, and therapy to talk people into growing up to be gay in adulthood, not transgender [direct quote from above!] is ethical. That's not a direct quote, it's an interpretation, and I think it's mistaken because it overlooks something that seems to me to me fairly obvious but inconvenient to both sides of the political fight over the fundamental reality or unreality of transgender identity: a substantial portion of gender dysphoria isn't a sex-trait-specific body dysmorphia, it's a conflict between ones preferred modes of personal expression/behavior and social gender images and stereotypes. In a heteronormative social context, individuals the with homosexual tendencies and ideation are going to be prone to experience such a conflict between personal preferences and gender stereotypes, with being accepted as the opposite gender an obvious route to relieving the tension (the same would seem to be true of male bisexuals in a context more accepting of female-female attraction, whether bisexual or homosexual, than male-male attraction.) Therapy to help children recognize whether the source of the tension with ascribed gender is really fundamentally grounded in a conflict of personal preference with heteronormative gender stereotypes will (if it is effective) make it more likely that those for whom that is the source of tension resolve it as homosexual (or maybe bisexual) members of the gender corresponding to their sex identified at birth, but that's not because the therapy is aimed at making them cisgendered gays or bisexuals, by because it enables them to recognize that that is the underlying reality producing their discomfort with societal expectations. This isn't endorsing a kind of conversion therapy as ethical, instead it's recognizing that the way rigid gender roles are imposed by society is often its own kind of undesirable “conversion therapy” that some people need an antidote for.