4 ms·

I hope you’ll agree it is not an identity to be say a male attracted to other men. It’s a sexual orientation. To suggest it’s an identity is to suggest everyone

by erentz 8y ago

I hope you’ll agree it is not an identity to be say a male attracted to other men. It’s a sexual orientation. To suggest it’s an identity is to suggest everyone’s sexual orientation is an identity and that undermines a huge amount of progress with made over the last thirty years accepting that you precisely can’t “pray away the gay”. So we shouldn’t conflate those two things. > Dr. Soh supports trans conversion therapy, under the idea that "boys who want to play with dolls and identify as female aren't trans, they're gay", and should be forced away from their belief (that they're girls.) That’s a strong assertion you’re making. You assert that she wants to force child girls who believe they are boys, and vice versa, to give up those beliefs. You also assert she thinks boys who play with dolls are gay. Do you have a source for that? > HRT doesn’t mean conversion therapy I’m confused. Where is HRT said to mean conversion therapy here?

sterlind 8y ago
I do mean that homosexuality is an identity. I do not believe such identities can be chosen. Identities are truths about who you are. Realizing you're gay can take some soul searching, the same way as realizing that you're trans, but it's not something you choose. (Why would you choose it? Take it from me, being trans sucks.) Your source: Conversion therapy seeks to change a person’s sexual orientation. No mental health professional in their right mind conducts this type of therapeutic intervention anymore, because it is understood that sexual orientation is immutable from a very young age. Gender identity, however—whether someone feels masculine or feminine—is flexible in prepubescent children and grows more stable into adulthood. Therapy that seeks to help gender dysphoric children grow comfortable in their birth sex (known in the research literature as the “therapeutic approach”) has been conflated with conversion therapy, but this is inaccurate. All of the available research following gender dysphoric children longitudinally shows that the majority desist; they outgrow their feelings of dysphoria by puberty and grow up to be gay in adulthood, not transgender. Dr. Soh's position is that unlike sexual orientation, which is immutable, gender identity is flexible, and therapy to talk people into growing up to be gay in adulthood, not transgender [direct quote from above!] is ethical. The example she gives about the boy who plays with dolls and insists he's a girl is meant to support that point. As for HRT meaning conversion therapy, she thinks HRT is homophobic, designed to change someone's sexual orientation from gay to straight, by changing their gender. This is laughable, as it's far more difficult being trans (largely because of people like her) and completely ignores gay trans people (like me.)
- erentz 8y ago
  Ok, so it's agreed she is against conversion therapy where conversion therapy is forced change of sexual orientation. > Your source: ... Gender identity, however—whether someone feels masculine or feminine—is flexible in prepubescent children and grows more stable into adulthood. This is one paragraph where she simply seems to be asserting that gender identity is more flexible during childhood and tends to solidify as we grow into adults. This is a different paragraph from this: > Therapy that seeks to help gender dysphoric children grow comfortable in their birth sex (known in the research literature as the “therapeutic approach”) has been conflated with conversion therapy, but this is inaccurate. Which is the crux of the issue (I think?). Therapy helping children be comfortable with their birth sex is something she advocates, but some people feel that is negative and (somehow?) forceful and are labeling "conversion therapy". I'm lost there because we should all hope to be comfortable in the skin we're born in. I wouldn't want to deny a child therapy to help them with that. And I wouldn't want to deny an adult the same therapy. It's freedom enabling. We've been fighting that fight a long time and don't want to wind back that clock. This reads more like anti-conversion therapy (a kind of "dude, you're cool just as you are, if you can make it work as you first"). Where the alternative is to just be uncomfortable in the skin you're in until you transition. And then that's a problem because: > All of the available research following gender dysphoric children longitudinally shows that the majority desist; they outgrow their feelings of dysphoria by puberty and grow up to be gay in adulthood, not transgender. This seems to be a pretty important claim if the wellbeing of the child is of concern here. From this fairly short dive so far, it seems Dr Soh's position clearly comes from one of genuine concern for children and one based on scientific research. Based on that and a general precautionary principal she's advocating therapy to help children be comfortable with the skin they're in first, particularly before giving a child puberty blockers or hormone therapy.
  - sterlind 8y ago
    As with many arguments on this site, and the discourse on trans issues as a whole, I doubt either of us are willing to budge enough on this issue to make debate worthwhile. I'm trans, and I've been on the receiving end of parental coercion. You're possibly a parent of a gender non-conforming child, or had a phase you grew out of as a kid, etc. In about 18 years, if I'm right, a score of resentful GNC children forced into therapy by their parents will cut off their families and transition on their own. If you're right, a large number of children who transitioned during puberty will have major regrets. Either way, there's no point wasting time debating this. Neither of our sides are going to convince each other. Just do what you have to, and I'll do the same, and we'll watch and wait.

by erentz 8y ago

sterlind 8y ago

I do mean that homosexuality is an identity. I do not believe such identities can be chosen. Identities are truths about who you are. Realizing you're gay can take some soul searching, the same way as realizing that you're trans, but it's not something you choose. (Why would you choose it? Take it from me, being trans sucks.) Your source: Conversion therapy seeks to change a person’s sexual orientation. No mental health professional in their right mind conducts this type of therapeutic intervention anymore, because it is understood that sexual orientation is immutable from a very young age. Gender identity, however—whether someone feels masculine or feminine—is flexible in prepubescent children and grows more stable into adulthood. Therapy that seeks to help gender dysphoric children grow comfortable in their birth sex (known in the research literature as the “therapeutic approach”) has been conflated with conversion therapy, but this is inaccurate. All of the available research following gender dysphoric children longitudinally shows that the majority desist; they outgrow their feelings of dysphoria by puberty and grow up to be gay in adulthood, not transgender. Dr. Soh's position is that unlike sexual orientation, which is immutable, gender identity is flexible, and therapy to talk people into growing up to be gay in adulthood, not transgender [direct quote from above!] is ethical. The example she gives about the boy who plays with dolls and insists he's a girl is meant to support that point. As for HRT meaning conversion therapy, she thinks HRT is homophobic, designed to change someone's sexual orientation from gay to straight, by changing their gender. This is laughable, as it's far more difficult being trans (largely because of people like her) and completely ignores gay trans people (like me.)

erentz 8y ago
Ok, so it's agreed she is against conversion therapy where conversion therapy is forced change of sexual orientation. > Your source: ... Gender identity, however—whether someone feels masculine or feminine—is flexible in prepubescent children and grows more stable into adulthood. This is one paragraph where she simply seems to be asserting that gender identity is more flexible during childhood and tends to solidify as we grow into adults. This is a different paragraph from this: > Therapy that seeks to help gender dysphoric children grow comfortable in their birth sex (known in the research literature as the “therapeutic approach”) has been conflated with conversion therapy, but this is inaccurate. Which is the crux of the issue (I think?). Therapy helping children be comfortable with their birth sex is something she advocates, but some people feel that is negative and (somehow?) forceful and are labeling "conversion therapy". I'm lost there because we should all hope to be comfortable in the skin we're born in. I wouldn't want to deny a child therapy to help them with that. And I wouldn't want to deny an adult the same therapy. It's freedom enabling. We've been fighting that fight a long time and don't want to wind back that clock. This reads more like anti-conversion therapy (a kind of "dude, you're cool just as you are, if you can make it work as you first"). Where the alternative is to just be uncomfortable in the skin you're in until you transition. And then that's a problem because: > All of the available research following gender dysphoric children longitudinally shows that the majority desist; they outgrow their feelings of dysphoria by puberty and grow up to be gay in adulthood, not transgender. This seems to be a pretty important claim if the wellbeing of the child is of concern here. From this fairly short dive so far, it seems Dr Soh's position clearly comes from one of genuine concern for children and one based on scientific research. Based on that and a general precautionary principal she's advocating therapy to help children be comfortable with the skin they're in first, particularly before giving a child puberty blockers or hormone therapy.
- sterlind 8y ago
  As with many arguments on this site, and the discourse on trans issues as a whole, I doubt either of us are willing to budge enough on this issue to make debate worthwhile. I'm trans, and I've been on the receiving end of parental coercion. You're possibly a parent of a gender non-conforming child, or had a phase you grew out of as a kid, etc. In about 18 years, if I'm right, a score of resentful GNC children forced into therapy by their parents will cut off their families and transition on their own. If you're right, a large number of children who transitioned during puberty will have major regrets. Either way, there's no point wasting time debating this. Neither of our sides are going to convince each other. Just do what you have to, and I'll do the same, and we'll watch and wait.