5 ms·

Statements like "In a world where world-class scientists’ merit is now determined by their sex and skin color—with white men’s work being dismissed in the name

Statements like "In a world where world-class scientists’ merit is now determined by their sex and skin color—with white men’s work being dismissed in the name of promoting women and minorities" have a heavy political bias and the article isn't even concerned with supporting that point, it's just dropped in there like it's a fact.

klyrs 8y ago
That is a pretty heavy political bias. Which isn't a surprise, given D. W. Soh's history of confusing politics with science -- she argued in favor of conversion therapy for trangender kids (which doesn't work and kills patients) and quit academia because she couldn't handle the resulting criticism -- and now she's a political writer who peddles pseudoscience.
- dogma1138 8y ago
  When did she ever argued for conversion therapy? All I’ve seen is that she was against transitioning prepubescent children as most children that exhibit gender dysphoria grow out of it.
  - erentz 8y ago
    Yeah, quite the opposite it appears she is against conversion therapy. It looks the parent poster is committing a perfect example of the kinds of things Quillette and the IDW are arguing against.
  - klyrs 8y ago
    https://www.newsday.com/opinion/commentary/why-bans-on-conversion-therapy-are-misguided-1.13742599 https://www.newsday.com/opinion/commentary/why-bans-on-conve...
    - erentz 8y ago
      In that article she is not supporting conversion therapy. She states “The most recent scientific research shows that sexual orientation is immutable and there is no evidence to suggest it can be changed through conversion therapy or otherwise.“ She is arguing against bans that she says “incorrectly conflate sexual orientation with gender identity”. So from reading that article she thinks it shouldn’t be illegal to offer for example a female child who is attracted to girls, and who likes doing activities everyone labels as “boy” interests, therapy that helps them accept they are a just girl who happens to like other girls, and happens to like what society incorrectly labels “boys things”.
      - klyrs 8y ago
        > ...therapy that helps them accept they are a just girl... ... yes, that is called conversion therapy.
- erentz 8y ago
  > she argued in favor of conversion therapy for trangender kids Have a source for that? I don’t know much about Dr Soh but as soon as I read this it sounded exactly like the kind of intentional misinterpretation that are leveled against many to win arguments these days. Especially when it comes to trans issues and giving children drugs to prevent puberty. Here’s an article for example in which she’s against conversion therapy: https://quillette.com/2018/10/23/the-unspoken-homophobia-propelling-the-transgender-movement-in-children/ https://quillette.com/2018/10/23/the-unspoken-homophobia-pro...
  - sterlind 8y ago
    Conversion therapy means talking someone out of their identity. Gay conversion therapy refers to "pray away the gay"-style camps. Dr. Soh supports trans conversion therapy, under the idea that "boys who want to play with dolls and identify as female aren't trans, they're gay", and should be forced away from their belief (that they're girls.) HRT doesn't mean conversion therapy in any circle I've been in. Prime weasel words there.
    - erentz 8y ago
      I hope you’ll agree it is not an identity to be say a male attracted to other men. It’s a sexual orientation. To suggest it’s an identity is to suggest everyone’s sexual orientation is an identity and that undermines a huge amount of progress with made over the last thirty years accepting that you precisely can’t “pray away the gay”. So we shouldn’t conflate those two things. > Dr. Soh supports trans conversion therapy, under the idea that "boys who want to play with dolls and identify as female aren't trans, they're gay", and should be forced away from their belief (that they're girls.) That’s a strong assertion you’re making. You assert that she wants to force child girls who believe they are boys, and vice versa, to give up those beliefs. You also assert she thinks boys who play with dolls are gay. Do you have a source for that? > HRT doesn’t mean conversion therapy I’m confused. Where is HRT said to mean conversion therapy here?
      - sterlind 8y ago
        I do mean that homosexuality is an identity. I do not believe such identities can be chosen. Identities are truths about who you are. Realizing you're gay can take some soul searching, the same way as realizing that you're trans, but it's not something you choose. (Why would you choose it? Take it from me, being trans sucks.) Your source: Conversion therapy seeks to change a person’s sexual orientation. No mental health professional in their right mind conducts this type of therapeutic intervention anymore, because it is understood that sexual orientation is immutable from a very young age. Gender identity, however—whether someone feels masculine or feminine—is flexible in prepubescent children and grows more stable into adulthood. Therapy that seeks to help gender dysphoric children grow comfortable in their birth sex (known in the research literature as the “therapeutic approach”) has been conflated with conversion therapy, but this is inaccurate. All of the available research following gender dysphoric children longitudinally shows that the majority desist; they outgrow their feelings of dysphoria by puberty and grow up to be gay in adulthood, not transgender. Dr. Soh's position is that unlike sexual orientation, which is immutable, gender identity is flexible, and therapy to talk people into growing up to be gay in adulthood, not transgender [direct quote from above!] is ethical. The example she gives about the boy who plays with dolls and insists he's a girl is meant to support that point. As for HRT meaning conversion therapy, she thinks HRT is homophobic, designed to change someone's sexual orientation from gay to straight, by changing their gender. This is laughable, as it's far more difficult being trans (largely because of people like her) and completely ignores gay trans people (like me.)
crowdpleaser 8y ago
I think I can provide evidence of this, but I'd like to use a double-crux and put both of our beliefs on the table. If I can show you criticism of a scientists' work in a natural / mathematical science field that emphasizes the (white or male) identity of the scientist in question, would you be prepared to concede that there is progressive scientific denialism and progressivism can be at odds with scientific inquiry?
drngdds 8y ago
Yeah, Quillette is basically a slightly more intellectual version of Breitbart. They just push a conservative agenda.

klyrs 8y ago

That is a pretty heavy political bias. Which isn't a surprise, given D. W. Soh's history of confusing politics with science -- she argued in favor of conversion therapy for trangender kids (which doesn't work and kills patients) and quit academia because she couldn't handle the resulting criticism -- and now she's a political writer who peddles pseudoscience.

dogma1138 8y ago
When did she ever argued for conversion therapy? All I’ve seen is that she was against transitioning prepubescent children as most children that exhibit gender dysphoria grow out of it.
- erentz 8y ago
  Yeah, quite the opposite it appears she is against conversion therapy. It looks the parent poster is committing a perfect example of the kinds of things Quillette and the IDW are arguing against.
- klyrs 8y ago
  https://www.newsday.com/opinion/commentary/why-bans-on-conversion-therapy-are-misguided-1.13742599 https://www.newsday.com/opinion/commentary/why-bans-on-conve...
  - erentz 8y ago
    In that article she is not supporting conversion therapy. She states “The most recent scientific research shows that sexual orientation is immutable and there is no evidence to suggest it can be changed through conversion therapy or otherwise.“ She is arguing against bans that she says “incorrectly conflate sexual orientation with gender identity”. So from reading that article she thinks it shouldn’t be illegal to offer for example a female child who is attracted to girls, and who likes doing activities everyone labels as “boy” interests, therapy that helps them accept they are a just girl who happens to like other girls, and happens to like what society incorrectly labels “boys things”.
    - klyrs 8y ago
      > ...therapy that helps them accept they are a just girl... ... yes, that is called conversion therapy.
erentz 8y ago
> she argued in favor of conversion therapy for trangender kids Have a source for that? I don’t know much about Dr Soh but as soon as I read this it sounded exactly like the kind of intentional misinterpretation that are leveled against many to win arguments these days. Especially when it comes to trans issues and giving children drugs to prevent puberty. Here’s an article for example in which she’s against conversion therapy: https://quillette.com/2018/10/23/the-unspoken-homophobia-propelling-the-transgender-movement-in-children/ https://quillette.com/2018/10/23/the-unspoken-homophobia-pro...
- sterlind 8y ago
  Conversion therapy means talking someone out of their identity. Gay conversion therapy refers to "pray away the gay"-style camps. Dr. Soh supports trans conversion therapy, under the idea that "boys who want to play with dolls and identify as female aren't trans, they're gay", and should be forced away from their belief (that they're girls.) HRT doesn't mean conversion therapy in any circle I've been in. Prime weasel words there.
  - erentz 8y ago
    I hope you’ll agree it is not an identity to be say a male attracted to other men. It’s a sexual orientation. To suggest it’s an identity is to suggest everyone’s sexual orientation is an identity and that undermines a huge amount of progress with made over the last thirty years accepting that you precisely can’t “pray away the gay”. So we shouldn’t conflate those two things. > Dr. Soh supports trans conversion therapy, under the idea that "boys who want to play with dolls and identify as female aren't trans, they're gay", and should be forced away from their belief (that they're girls.) That’s a strong assertion you’re making. You assert that she wants to force child girls who believe they are boys, and vice versa, to give up those beliefs. You also assert she thinks boys who play with dolls are gay. Do you have a source for that? > HRT doesn’t mean conversion therapy I’m confused. Where is HRT said to mean conversion therapy here?
    - sterlind 8y ago
      I do mean that homosexuality is an identity. I do not believe such identities can be chosen. Identities are truths about who you are. Realizing you're gay can take some soul searching, the same way as realizing that you're trans, but it's not something you choose. (Why would you choose it? Take it from me, being trans sucks.) Your source: Conversion therapy seeks to change a person’s sexual orientation. No mental health professional in their right mind conducts this type of therapeutic intervention anymore, because it is understood that sexual orientation is immutable from a very young age. Gender identity, however—whether someone feels masculine or feminine—is flexible in prepubescent children and grows more stable into adulthood. Therapy that seeks to help gender dysphoric children grow comfortable in their birth sex (known in the research literature as the “therapeutic approach”) has been conflated with conversion therapy, but this is inaccurate. All of the available research following gender dysphoric children longitudinally shows that the majority desist; they outgrow their feelings of dysphoria by puberty and grow up to be gay in adulthood, not transgender. Dr. Soh's position is that unlike sexual orientation, which is immutable, gender identity is flexible, and therapy to talk people into growing up to be gay in adulthood, not transgender [direct quote from above!] is ethical. The example she gives about the boy who plays with dolls and insists he's a girl is meant to support that point. As for HRT meaning conversion therapy, she thinks HRT is homophobic, designed to change someone's sexual orientation from gay to straight, by changing their gender. This is laughable, as it's far more difficult being trans (largely because of people like her) and completely ignores gay trans people (like me.)

crowdpleaser 8y ago

I think I can provide evidence of this, but I'd like to use a double-crux and put both of our beliefs on the table. If I can show you criticism of a scientists' work in a natural / mathematical science field that emphasizes the (white or male) identity of the scientist in question, would you be prepared to concede that there is progressive scientific denialism and progressivism can be at odds with scientific inquiry?

drngdds 8y ago

Yeah, Quillette is basically a slightly more intellectual version of Breitbart. They just push a conservative agenda.