9 ms·

Another former Tesla security manager says the company spied on employees

145 points by AndrewBissell 8y ago

dang 8y ago
Url changed from https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/11/18259786/tesla-spying-employees-security-manager-whistleblower-gigafactory-nevada https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/11/18259786/tesla-spying-emp..., which points to this.
legohead 8y ago
> Whistleblowing tips can lead to fines and sanctions against companies found guilty of violating securities law. Also, Whistleblowing can lead to personal monetary gain. [1] Not defending Tesla, but I think both sides should be presented fairly. [1] https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2018-44 https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2018-44
- Pharmakon 8y ago
  It only leads to personal gain if there really was malfeasance though; making things up won’t get you a penny. Given that, it does seem like you’re defending Tesla, or at least playing fast and loose.
  - AndrewBissell 8y ago
    Even true allegations can take years to come to fruition in a whistleblower payout, assuming there is still a solvent company around to pay fines by that point.
    - Pharmakon 8y ago
      Absolutely, and those years will be quite unpleasant. I don’t think I’ve ever heard of whistleblowing being a skive, or a pleasant path. “Happy like a whistleblower?” Nah.
- TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
  On the other hand... If a company is playing fast and loose with regulations or laws, or, more generally, peoples sanity by pushing it's employees to work a million hours a day, because it stands to gain financially from doing so. It seems only fair whistleblowers be likewise financially incentivised. In some ways we could consider it analogous to a Bug Bounty program.
anyfoo 8y ago
You might think that the way Tesla treats employees, like this incident and the general impression that they are being driven into burnout, has some consequences. And I think that’s exactly what we’re seeing with the generally tumultuous news that we see on Tesla lately. Heck, there’s another HN front page entry just today, about Tesla’s sudden reversal to close all stores. It’s probably not the only factor, but I would be surprised if it is not at least a factor.
- AndrewBissell 8y ago
  If it was not for the strength of cult belief in Elon Musk within the company, they would probably be facing an open revolt at this point. Don't miss "incentivizing employees to take out loans and spend PTO on new Teslas just before docking their pay": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19361710 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19361710
dkural 8y ago
In the Elon Way of Thinking, unless you 100% agree on everything and drink the cool aid and roll with rapid reversal of logic giving you whiplash, you are against the mission, and thus the enemy. Since everyone can one day disagree, and thus is potentially the enemy, the conclusion is we must spy on all internal and external entities; and when they disagree with anything, for instance, wanting a better workplace, question their motives. Another example: The SEC simply wants CEOs of a public company, you know, not to lie on twitter about material stuff like having a deal to buy-out the company... but according to Elon, the SEC simply wants to destroy Tesla; is part of a sinister network of anti-Elon forces, and can't possibly be actually watching out for investors and pensions. This is the mentality of a paranoid dictator. Short-sellers, who are to Elon are like Hillary/Muller to Trump on Twitter, are seeing a company constantly missing self-imposed goals and milestones, must also have be evil people, as opposed to simply pointing out the blatant issues on hand.
- hi5eyes 8y ago
  totallynotacult elon's hubris makes him and his actions with his companies pretty great entertainment but his treatment of employees and his followers treatment of those not drinking his kool aid is scary. his/teslas brand is interesting
- norman101 8y ago
  He makes electric cars and spaceships, of course there will be people like you who find a reason to hate him. The contrarians who should just be ignored and brushed away as annoying little squeaky voices as the future drifts further and further away from their ignorant tiny little brains
  - AndrewBissell 8y ago
    Lots of people could make electric cars and rockets ("spaceships" lol) if they were handed 10s of billions in investor funds and government subsidies. It's really not that special of an accomplishment.
    - 8y ago
Zelphyr 8y ago
As an aside, if you’re using company-provided computers and phones your default behavior should be to assume they are spying on you to the degree that they are recording every action you take in those devices. It’s a spectrum—many companies don’t do this at all—but you would be doing well by yourself by assuming they record and track everything. You should also assume all of your traffic while at the office (if your comapny is old school and you only have a desktop) is being recorded.
- AndrewBissell 8y ago
  > The tip from Sean Gouthro, the former head of Tesla's global security operations center and investigations, was filed on January 24 and corroborates a tip filed in August from Karl Hansen ... Hansen's tip claimed that Tesla did not disclose to shareholders the theft of raw materials and the unauthorized surveillance and hacking of employee cellphones and computers. This is not a tip about Tesla watching what its employees are doing on its own equipment and data networks.
  - dontbenebby 8y ago
    >This is not a tip about Tesla watching what its employees are doing on its own equipment and data networks. I'm curious about details on this. Modern phones (well, iPhones at least) are pretty hard to break into. I wonder if it was something like having them install a root certificate to use the company wifi, then using that root cert to spy on other traffic traversing the network (such as leaks to reporters)
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - lozaning 8y ago
      Anymore these days its been my experience that cert pinning prevents this from working. Adding a new root cert does not force any of the apps to use the root cert if they've enabled pinning.
woodandsteel 8y ago
Here's another article with a different take: https://electrek.co/2019/03/11/tesla-former-security-manager-corroborates-claim-large-theft-criminal-activity-gigafactory-1/ https://electrek.co/2019/03/11/tesla-former-security-manager...
- dayaz36 8y ago
  Electrek writes the best articles. FUD free
  - woodandsteel 8y ago
    Well I don't know if they are perfect, but they are miles better than the ton of anti-Tesla propaganda that has been flooding the media for the last year or two. By the way, I am not saying there are not important criticisms of Musk and Tesla, it's that you need to balance it with all the things that are praiseworthy, and lately that just hasn't been happening. It seems like the more Tesla succeeds, the harder the media try to prove he is either a con man or a complete idiot.
    - ctack 8y ago
      As I see it, it's as an extension of the SpaceX smear campaign which, crazy as it sounds, seems like it's a real thing.
ggm 8y ago
Tesla is anti union. Tesla spies on employees. Why do I see a nexus here?
- rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago
  The thing is, unions were anti-Tesla first. And there are very good reasons for that https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-electromobility-jobs/switch-to-electric-cars-threatens-75000-german-auto-industry-jobs-idUSKCN1J115L https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-electromobility-j... https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos-ford-motor-union/as-ford-pushes-into-electric-vehicles-u-s-union-aims-to-save-jobs-idUSKBN1CA2EI https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos-ford-motor-union/as...

145 points by AndrewBissell 8y ago

dang 8y ago

Url changed from https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/11/18259786/tesla-spying-employees-security-manager-whistleblower-gigafactory-nevada https://www.theverge.com/2019/3/11/18259786/tesla-spying-emp..., which points to this.

legohead 8y ago

> Whistleblowing tips can lead to fines and sanctions against companies found guilty of violating securities law. Also, Whistleblowing can lead to personal monetary gain. [1] Not defending Tesla, but I think both sides should be presented fairly. [1] https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2018-44 https://www.sec.gov/news/press-release/2018-44

Pharmakon 8y ago
It only leads to personal gain if there really was malfeasance though; making things up won’t get you a penny. Given that, it does seem like you’re defending Tesla, or at least playing fast and loose.
- AndrewBissell 8y ago
  Even true allegations can take years to come to fruition in a whistleblower payout, assuming there is still a solvent company around to pay fines by that point.
  - Pharmakon 8y ago
    Absolutely, and those years will be quite unpleasant. I don’t think I’ve ever heard of whistleblowing being a skive, or a pleasant path. “Happy like a whistleblower?” Nah.
TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
On the other hand... If a company is playing fast and loose with regulations or laws, or, more generally, peoples sanity by pushing it's employees to work a million hours a day, because it stands to gain financially from doing so. It seems only fair whistleblowers be likewise financially incentivised. In some ways we could consider it analogous to a Bug Bounty program.

anyfoo 8y ago

You might think that the way Tesla treats employees, like this incident and the general impression that they are being driven into burnout, has some consequences. And I think that’s exactly what we’re seeing with the generally tumultuous news that we see on Tesla lately. Heck, there’s another HN front page entry just today, about Tesla’s sudden reversal to close all stores. It’s probably not the only factor, but I would be surprised if it is not at least a factor.

AndrewBissell 8y ago
If it was not for the strength of cult belief in Elon Musk within the company, they would probably be facing an open revolt at this point. Don't miss "incentivizing employees to take out loans and spend PTO on new Teslas just before docking their pay": https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19361710 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19361710

dkural 8y ago

In the Elon Way of Thinking, unless you 100% agree on everything and drink the cool aid and roll with rapid reversal of logic giving you whiplash, you are against the mission, and thus the enemy. Since everyone can one day disagree, and thus is potentially the enemy, the conclusion is we must spy on all internal and external entities; and when they disagree with anything, for instance, wanting a better workplace, question their motives. Another example: The SEC simply wants CEOs of a public company, you know, not to lie on twitter about material stuff like having a deal to buy-out the company... but according to Elon, the SEC simply wants to destroy Tesla; is part of a sinister network of anti-Elon forces, and can't possibly be actually watching out for investors and pensions. This is the mentality of a paranoid dictator. Short-sellers, who are to Elon are like Hillary/Muller to Trump on Twitter, are seeing a company constantly missing self-imposed goals and milestones, must also have be evil people, as opposed to simply pointing out the blatant issues on hand.

hi5eyes 8y ago
totallynotacult elon's hubris makes him and his actions with his companies pretty great entertainment but his treatment of employees and his followers treatment of those not drinking his kool aid is scary. his/teslas brand is interesting
norman101 8y ago
He makes electric cars and spaceships, of course there will be people like you who find a reason to hate him. The contrarians who should just be ignored and brushed away as annoying little squeaky voices as the future drifts further and further away from their ignorant tiny little brains
- AndrewBissell 8y ago
  Lots of people could make electric cars and rockets ("spaceships" lol) if they were handed 10s of billions in investor funds and government subsidies. It's really not that special of an accomplishment.
  - 8y ago

Zelphyr 8y ago

As an aside, if you’re using company-provided computers and phones your default behavior should be to assume they are spying on you to the degree that they are recording every action you take in those devices. It’s a spectrum—many companies don’t do this at all—but you would be doing well by yourself by assuming they record and track everything. You should also assume all of your traffic while at the office (if your comapny is old school and you only have a desktop) is being recorded.

AndrewBissell 8y ago
> The tip from Sean Gouthro, the former head of Tesla's global security operations center and investigations, was filed on January 24 and corroborates a tip filed in August from Karl Hansen ... Hansen's tip claimed that Tesla did not disclose to shareholders the theft of raw materials and the unauthorized surveillance and hacking of employee cellphones and computers. This is not a tip about Tesla watching what its employees are doing on its own equipment and data networks.
- dontbenebby 8y ago
  >This is not a tip about Tesla watching what its employees are doing on its own equipment and data networks. I'm curious about details on this. Modern phones (well, iPhones at least) are pretty hard to break into. I wonder if it was something like having them install a root certificate to use the company wifi, then using that root cert to spy on other traffic traversing the network (such as leaks to reporters)
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - lozaning 8y ago
    Anymore these days its been my experience that cert pinning prevents this from working. Adding a new root cert does not force any of the apps to use the root cert if they've enabled pinning.

woodandsteel 8y ago

Here's another article with a different take: https://electrek.co/2019/03/11/tesla-former-security-manager-corroborates-claim-large-theft-criminal-activity-gigafactory-1/ https://electrek.co/2019/03/11/tesla-former-security-manager...

dayaz36 8y ago
Electrek writes the best articles. FUD free
- woodandsteel 8y ago
  Well I don't know if they are perfect, but they are miles better than the ton of anti-Tesla propaganda that has been flooding the media for the last year or two. By the way, I am not saying there are not important criticisms of Musk and Tesla, it's that you need to balance it with all the things that are praiseworthy, and lately that just hasn't been happening. It seems like the more Tesla succeeds, the harder the media try to prove he is either a con man or a complete idiot.
  - ctack 8y ago
    As I see it, it's as an extension of the SpaceX smear campaign which, crazy as it sounds, seems like it's a real thing.

ggm 8y ago

Tesla is anti union. Tesla spies on employees. Why do I see a nexus here?

rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago
The thing is, unions were anti-Tesla first. And there are very good reasons for that https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-electromobility-jobs/switch-to-electric-cars-threatens-75000-german-auto-industry-jobs-idUSKCN1J115L https://www.reuters.com/article/us-germany-electromobility-j... https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos-ford-motor-union/as-ford-pushes-into-electric-vehicles-u-s-union-aims-to-save-jobs-idUSKBN1CA2EI https://www.reuters.com/article/us-autos-ford-motor-union/as...