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Well if Mali has 2000 ships, that would have been “technologically superior” to what the native Americans would have had, since they had boats, not ships. But

Well if Mali has 2000 ships, that would have been “technologically superior” to what the native Americans would have had, since they had boats, not ships. But Mali also had guns so I’m not sure how Mali couldn’t have been seen as more technologically advanced. I’m asking out of actual curiosity.

restalis 8y ago
"that would have been «technologically superior» to what the native Americans would have had, since they had boats, not ships" Technological superiority as in "the air [or aura] of invincibility"¹ that conquistadors acquired in their campaigns. That required quite a difference in military capabilities and skill to leverage that superiority into an exploitable psychological effect. I'm sure there were plenty of technological advantages over native Americans, but I'm not so sure that those were enough to have the same impact as that had for the later Spanish conquest force. "Mali also had guns so I’m not sure how Mali couldn’t have been seen as more technologically advanced" I doubt that gunpowder had at that time a significant use in Middle East², let alone in some far western parts of Africa. That use was initially reduced to casted-on-the-spot direction-fixed heavy bombards, used in fortress sieges, not against dispersed groups of infantry. It took time for technology to be developed into hand-wielding guns like the Arquebus. Add to that it would have been a stretch for some attacking force accustomed to dry weather to rely on gunpowder in (probably unexpected) tropical/equatorial wetlands. ¹ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cajamarca https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cajamarca ² https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder#Middle_East https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder#Middle_East
pacala 8y ago
"Reportedly" had 2000 ships. The whole article is full of "reportedly" whenever it comes to hard numbers. She appears to be cherry picking outlandish accounts that are not corroborated with other sources. For comparison, the Spanish armada, in 1588, posing a major challenge to British rule of the seas, had 130 ships. From what I can tell, the distance from Dakkar, the Atlantic port that appears in the map from the article to Lisbon [Atlantic port in Iberic peninsula] is ~1700 miles, while the distance from Lisbon to London is ~1000 miles. A force more than 10 times larger than the Spanish Armada only twice as far should have been a sight to behold, and reckon by European nations. Heck, if Abu-Bakr had cross-Atlantic ambitions, his navy should have long reached Europe. Yet, the mighty Mali navy is mysteriously a footnote in [or absent from] contemporary European maritime accounts. This belongs to click-bait sites [copiously cited in the article] like money.com, celebritynetworth.com or smartasset.com, and not on the BBC. How the mighty have fallen...
- chewz 8y ago
  Not to argue with your arguments but it wouldn't had been so easy to sail from Dakar to Lisboa due to prevailing winds. Sailing to America would be much easier.
  - pacala 8y ago
    Fair enough, I'm not a maritime buff. Here's a bit more info to confirm your point [0]. I was thinking more of intermediate stops, specifically Canary islands and Morocco coast, which could have made the voyage easier, and allow the gradual development of navigational prowess in the first place. Speaking of intermediate stops, you'd expect a fleet of 2000 ships sailing to Americas to be borne out of a maritime culture with a significant footprint. You'd expect said culture to leave some archeological traces in the Cape Verde islands, which are only 400 miles straight to the west of Dakkar. I have never heard of any hard evidence of massive Mali empire / West African fleets traveling to Cape Verde islands on a regular basis. According to Wikipedia: > Before the arrival of Europeans, the Cape Verde Islands were uninhabited.[12] The islands of the Cape Verde archipelago were discovered by Genoese and Portuguese navigators around 1456. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevailing_winds https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevailing_winds [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Verde#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Verde#History
    - chewz 8y ago
      Sailing west is easy with passat wind. Sailing North to Europe would require sailing far into the ocean in NW direction and turning East when you catch westerlies at 30 deg North. That would require lots of courage or prior navigational knowledge. It is almost impossible to sail North along the coast of Africa even for ships that can go strong against the wind. This is what most people misunderstand about Columbus. He did not discover America, he discovered the way to go there and back which required sailing first South looking for passat and returning by sailing North and then catching western winds. Columbus knew that (from studying reports) before he left on his first voyage, he repeated this four times as all sailors who followed in his steps did for 300 years.

restalis 8y ago

"that would have been «technologically superior» to what the native Americans would have had, since they had boats, not ships" Technological superiority as in "the air [or aura] of invincibility"¹ that conquistadors acquired in their campaigns. That required quite a difference in military capabilities and skill to leverage that superiority into an exploitable psychological effect. I'm sure there were plenty of technological advantages over native Americans, but I'm not so sure that those were enough to have the same impact as that had for the later Spanish conquest force. "Mali also had guns so I’m not sure how Mali couldn’t have been seen as more technologically advanced" I doubt that gunpowder had at that time a significant use in Middle East², let alone in some far western parts of Africa. That use was initially reduced to casted-on-the-spot direction-fixed heavy bombards, used in fortress sieges, not against dispersed groups of infantry. It took time for technology to be developed into hand-wielding guns like the Arquebus. Add to that it would have been a stretch for some attacking force accustomed to dry weather to rely on gunpowder in (probably unexpected) tropical/equatorial wetlands. ¹ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cajamarca https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cajamarca ² https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder#Middle_East https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder#Middle_East

pacala 8y ago

"Reportedly" had 2000 ships. The whole article is full of "reportedly" whenever it comes to hard numbers. She appears to be cherry picking outlandish accounts that are not corroborated with other sources. For comparison, the Spanish armada, in 1588, posing a major challenge to British rule of the seas, had 130 ships. From what I can tell, the distance from Dakkar, the Atlantic port that appears in the map from the article to Lisbon [Atlantic port in Iberic peninsula] is ~1700 miles, while the distance from Lisbon to London is ~1000 miles. A force more than 10 times larger than the Spanish Armada only twice as far should have been a sight to behold, and reckon by European nations. Heck, if Abu-Bakr had cross-Atlantic ambitions, his navy should have long reached Europe. Yet, the mighty Mali navy is mysteriously a footnote in [or absent from] contemporary European maritime accounts. This belongs to click-bait sites [copiously cited in the article] like money.com, celebritynetworth.com or smartasset.com, and not on the BBC. How the mighty have fallen...

chewz 8y ago
Not to argue with your arguments but it wouldn't had been so easy to sail from Dakar to Lisboa due to prevailing winds. Sailing to America would be much easier.
- pacala 8y ago
  Fair enough, I'm not a maritime buff. Here's a bit more info to confirm your point [0]. I was thinking more of intermediate stops, specifically Canary islands and Morocco coast, which could have made the voyage easier, and allow the gradual development of navigational prowess in the first place. Speaking of intermediate stops, you'd expect a fleet of 2000 ships sailing to Americas to be borne out of a maritime culture with a significant footprint. You'd expect said culture to leave some archeological traces in the Cape Verde islands, which are only 400 miles straight to the west of Dakkar. I have never heard of any hard evidence of massive Mali empire / West African fleets traveling to Cape Verde islands on a regular basis. According to Wikipedia: > Before the arrival of Europeans, the Cape Verde Islands were uninhabited.[12] The islands of the Cape Verde archipelago were discovered by Genoese and Portuguese navigators around 1456. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevailing_winds https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevailing_winds [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Verde#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Verde#History
  - chewz 8y ago
    Sailing west is easy with passat wind. Sailing North to Europe would require sailing far into the ocean in NW direction and turning East when you catch westerlies at 30 deg North. That would require lots of courage or prior navigational knowledge. It is almost impossible to sail North along the coast of Africa even for ships that can go strong against the wind. This is what most people misunderstand about Columbus. He did not discover America, he discovered the way to go there and back which required sailing first South looking for passat and returning by sailing North and then catching western winds. Columbus knew that (from studying reports) before he left on his first voyage, he repeated this four times as all sailors who followed in his steps did for 300 years.