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Doesn't Tesla's batteries really mean Panasonic's batteries? Gigafactory 1 is a joint venture with Panasonic. What's stopping any of the other vehicle manufact

Doesn't Tesla's batteries really mean Panasonic's batteries? Gigafactory 1 is a joint venture with Panasonic. What's stopping any of the other vehicle manufacturers from entering a joint venture agreement with any of the other large battery manufacturers?

rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago
You're confusing battery packs with battery cells.
clouddrover 8y ago
Nothing. Toyota has a joint venture with Panasonic: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-01-22/toyota-panasonic-battery-venture-is-an-electric-car-power-shift https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-01-22/toyota...
kjksf 8y ago
Panasonic makes battery cells. Think AAA battery. Tesla designed and makes everything else, and that's a lot. The technology that goes into making sure that the battery lasts a long time, works decently in cold and hot, can be charged at high speeds, doesn't explode etc. is very sophisticated and no other car maker has this knowledge in house. Even at the battery cell level Tesla doesn't just rely on Panasonic. Browse LinkedIn a bit and you'll see that they have in-house R&D for battery cells, they sponsor well-known cell-level academic researchers and they just spent over $200 million on Maxwell Technologies to get their cell-level IP. The first thing that stops other car makers from making big moves in the battery space is lack of conviction. They still act like they are only half-convinced that EVs are 100% of their future in very short order (speaking relatively in car business years). And the second thing that stops them is massive investments needed to build their own battery gigafactories. Third is probably lack of internal expertise (which Tesla was building since the days of roadster). Even those most committed (like Volksvagen) project for 2025 maybe 1/4th of (projected) Tesla's production. Fun fact: Volkswagen wants to partner with SK Technologies on battery factories. Reportedly their current supplier (LG Chem) threatened to cut them off if they proceed. It's unprecedented for a supplier to threaten their biggest buyer which should tell you the current distribution of power in battery technology.
- TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
  How do you reconcile your opinions state here with @clouddrover's comment, posted earlier than yours, stating the Toyota and Panasonic are entering a joint venture also?
  - oarsinsync 8y ago
    I expect it's a similar comparison to chips and fabs. Apple designs their own chips, TSMC fabs them. Apple maintains their edge because it's their proprietary design. Tesla may do the same.
    - TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
      I think my point is: Toyota etc. may do the same, no?
      - sfifs 8y ago
        Sooner or later mass scale technologies become commodities accessible to all. The question is can competitors stay solvent for longer than tech takes to commoditize
        TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
        Yes, thank you. I didn’t know it, but that’s what I was trying to say. Is Telsa’s battery tech and production advantage a big enough differentor to enable them to lay waste to all the other large auto producers? I don’t believe so. It’s hard to imagine a future where Tesla is the only car manufacturer.
        oarsinsync 8y ago
        Apple's advantages are big enough differentiators to enable them to lay waste to most other large phone/tablet/smartwatch producers performance and profits. They're not the only phone/tablet/smartwatch manufacturer though. Not all consumers care for 'best in $metric' products, and where consumer priorities differ, opportunities for others exist. IE, Tesla can maintain their advantages without the rest of the industry disappearing, it's not a zero-sum game.
rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago
Tesla cells are designed to Tesla's proprietary specs. This has just been confirmed: >CATL has been discussing the required specifications for the batteries with Tesla officials, the people said, asking not to be named because the talks are private. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-03-11/tesla-is-said-in-talks-with-battery-giant-catl-for-china-order https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-03-11/tesla-is-...

rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago

You're confusing battery packs with battery cells.

clouddrover 8y ago

Nothing. Toyota has a joint venture with Panasonic: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-01-22/toyota-panasonic-battery-venture-is-an-electric-car-power-shift https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-01-22/toyota...

kjksf 8y ago

Panasonic makes battery cells. Think AAA battery. Tesla designed and makes everything else, and that's a lot. The technology that goes into making sure that the battery lasts a long time, works decently in cold and hot, can be charged at high speeds, doesn't explode etc. is very sophisticated and no other car maker has this knowledge in house. Even at the battery cell level Tesla doesn't just rely on Panasonic. Browse LinkedIn a bit and you'll see that they have in-house R&D for battery cells, they sponsor well-known cell-level academic researchers and they just spent over $200 million on Maxwell Technologies to get their cell-level IP. The first thing that stops other car makers from making big moves in the battery space is lack of conviction. They still act like they are only half-convinced that EVs are 100% of their future in very short order (speaking relatively in car business years). And the second thing that stops them is massive investments needed to build their own battery gigafactories. Third is probably lack of internal expertise (which Tesla was building since the days of roadster). Even those most committed (like Volksvagen) project for 2025 maybe 1/4th of (projected) Tesla's production. Fun fact: Volkswagen wants to partner with SK Technologies on battery factories. Reportedly their current supplier (LG Chem) threatened to cut them off if they proceed. It's unprecedented for a supplier to threaten their biggest buyer which should tell you the current distribution of power in battery technology.

TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
How do you reconcile your opinions state here with @clouddrover's comment, posted earlier than yours, stating the Toyota and Panasonic are entering a joint venture also?
- oarsinsync 8y ago
  I expect it's a similar comparison to chips and fabs. Apple designs their own chips, TSMC fabs them. Apple maintains their edge because it's their proprietary design. Tesla may do the same.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
    I think my point is: Toyota etc. may do the same, no?
    - sfifs 8y ago
      Sooner or later mass scale technologies become commodities accessible to all. The question is can competitors stay solvent for longer than tech takes to commoditize
      - TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
        Yes, thank you. I didn’t know it, but that’s what I was trying to say. Is Telsa’s battery tech and production advantage a big enough differentor to enable them to lay waste to all the other large auto producers? I don’t believe so. It’s hard to imagine a future where Tesla is the only car manufacturer.
        oarsinsync 8y ago
        Apple's advantages are big enough differentiators to enable them to lay waste to most other large phone/tablet/smartwatch producers performance and profits. They're not the only phone/tablet/smartwatch manufacturer though. Not all consumers care for 'best in $metric' products, and where consumer priorities differ, opportunities for others exist. IE, Tesla can maintain their advantages without the rest of the industry disappearing, it's not a zero-sum game.

rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago

Tesla cells are designed to Tesla's proprietary specs. This has just been confirmed: >CATL has been discussing the required specifications for the batteries with Tesla officials, the people said, asking not to be named because the talks are private. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-03-11/tesla-is-said-in-talks-with-battery-giant-catl-for-china-order https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-03-11/tesla-is-...