5 ms·

>They are quickly turning into a two trick pony in a world where everyone else has their own stable. What everyone else has? * No battery tech * Substandard

>They are quickly turning into a two trick pony in a world where everyone else has their own stable. What everyone else has? * No battery tech * Substandard electric drive trains * No OTA systems * No charging network * Crappy entertainment systems (your long term concerns are ridiculous: Bluetooth, USB connections, auto wipers and high beams, voice commands, energy monitoring > this is nothing compared to the issues that the competition has) * Poor self-driving tech and almost zero data * No control over the distribution network (the dealerships are a PITA for a manufacturer that tries to sell EV, because dealer can't service cars that don't need service except washer fluid) * etc I'm not even talking about their conflict of interests (continuing making profit from ICE sales while increasing EV production without cannibalizing their own ICE sales... in a market downturn)

JumpCrisscross 8y ago
> No battery tech I thought Tesla’s batteries are fairly run of the mill. The competitive advantage is they’re producing them at scale. That’s a moat, but an expensive one to maintain. Cutting prices would seem to remain a mistake.
- TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
  Doesn't Tesla's batteries really mean Panasonic's batteries? Gigafactory 1 is a joint venture with Panasonic. What's stopping any of the other vehicle manufacturers from entering a joint venture agreement with any of the other large battery manufacturers?
  - rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago
    You're confusing battery packs with battery cells.
  - clouddrover 8y ago
    Nothing. Toyota has a joint venture with Panasonic: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-01-22/toyota-panasonic-battery-venture-is-an-electric-car-power-shift https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-01-22/toyota...
  - kjksf 8y ago
    Panasonic makes battery cells. Think AAA battery. Tesla designed and makes everything else, and that's a lot. The technology that goes into making sure that the battery lasts a long time, works decently in cold and hot, can be charged at high speeds, doesn't explode etc. is very sophisticated and no other car maker has this knowledge in house. Even at the battery cell level Tesla doesn't just rely on Panasonic. Browse LinkedIn a bit and you'll see that they have in-house R&D for battery cells, they sponsor well-known cell-level academic researchers and they just spent over $200 million on Maxwell Technologies to get their cell-level IP. The first thing that stops other car makers from making big moves in the battery space is lack of conviction. They still act like they are only half-convinced that EVs are 100% of their future in very short order (speaking relatively in car business years). And the second thing that stops them is massive investments needed to build their own battery gigafactories. Third is probably lack of internal expertise (which Tesla was building since the days of roadster). Even those most committed (like Volksvagen) project for 2025 maybe 1/4th of (projected) Tesla's production. Fun fact: Volkswagen wants to partner with SK Technologies on battery factories. Reportedly their current supplier (LG Chem) threatened to cut them off if they proceed. It's unprecedented for a supplier to threaten their biggest buyer which should tell you the current distribution of power in battery technology.
    - TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
      How do you reconcile your opinions state here with @clouddrover's comment, posted earlier than yours, stating the Toyota and Panasonic are entering a joint venture also?
      - oarsinsync 8y ago
        I expect it's a similar comparison to chips and fabs. Apple designs their own chips, TSMC fabs them. Apple maintains their edge because it's their proprietary design. Tesla may do the same.
        TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
        I think my point is: Toyota etc. may do the same, no?
  - rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago
    Tesla cells are designed to Tesla's proprietary specs. This has just been confirmed: >CATL has been discussing the required specifications for the batteries with Tesla officials, the people said, asking not to be named because the talks are private. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-03-11/tesla-is-said-in-talks-with-battery-giant-catl-for-china-order https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-03-11/tesla-is-...
- reportingsjr 8y ago
  The physical cells themselves aren't that far ahead of the game (although they are definitely a little bit ahead on the cells), but the whole battery module is leagues ahead of anyone else. The performance and degradation of the battery packs is absolutely unparalleled at this time and it remains to be seen when any other company will catch up to them.
  - rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago
    Then why Tesla are far more efficient than all other EVs on the market in 2019: e-Tron, Jaguar I-PACE, Mercedes EQC, all-electric XC40...?
    - reitzensteinm 8y ago
      You're jumping around this thread spamming rabid defenses of Tesla, apparently too quickly to realize that the parent commenter actually agreed with you.
      - rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago
        We still disagree about the cells not being far ahead of the game. >Cells used in Model 3 are the highest energy density cells used in any electric vehicle. We have achieved this by significantly reducing cobalt content per battery pack while increasing nickel content and still maintaining superior thermal stability. The cobalt content of our Nickel-Cobalt-Aluminum cathode chemistry is already lower than next-generation cathodes that will be made by other cell producers with a Nickel-Manganese-Cobalt ratio of 8:1:1. As a result, even with its battery, the gross weight of Model 3 is on par with its gasoline-powered counterparts. http://electrek.co/2018/05/02/tesla-tsla-releases-q1-results-record-revenue-of-3-4-billion-still-wide-losses/ http://electrek.co/2018/05/02/tesla-tsla-releases-q1-results...
        reitzensteinm 8y ago
        If your intention is to make Tesla look good, you are achieving the opposite with this mindless spam. Popping up in every Tesla thread regurgitating the shit you read on Electrek adds zero value. I'm sure you have nuanced opinions but you aren't taking the time to read, think about and actually answer what you're replying to, so why should anybody care what you have to say? Churchill put it best: A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
- rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago
  >Cells used in Model 3 are the highest energy density cells used in any electric vehicle. We have achieved this by significantly reducing cobalt content per battery pack while increasing nickel content and still maintaining superior thermal stability. The cobalt content of our Nickel-Cobalt-Aluminum cathode chemistry is already lower than next-generation cathodes that will be made by other cell producers with a Nickel-Manganese-Cobalt ratio of 8:1:1. As a result, even with its battery, the gross weight of Model 3 is on par with its gasoline-powered counterparts. Source: http://ir.tesla.com/static-files/1b240f1e-b519-4b40-b14b-fea44698c3af http://ir.tesla.com/static-files/1b240f1e-b519-4b40-b14b-fea...
- anth_anm 8y ago
  and other car companies have been securing that supply chain.
edejong 8y ago
Ok, clearly flamebait, but I'll bite: * No battery tech: Daimler currently produces their own batteries [1] so do many competitors * Substandard electric drive trains: you mean the drive trains from Tesla that keep breaking? Check this Truedelta report [2] * No OTA systems: although many brands are developing similar systems, the OTA systems are causing many problems. [3]. In addition, changes in the behaviour of the autopilot system has been a likely contributor to the much-cited deadly Tesla autopilot crash [4]. * No charging network. True, mostly due to vendor lock-in. This is likely to change. In the Netherlands, you can charge your EV almost everywhere. * Crappy entertainment systems. Perhaps... Apple CarPlay could use some improvement. Nevertheless, I'd count this as a very minor point. * Poor self-driving tech. Compared to which other car? They are all level 2 autonomous: Cadillac CT6, a Mercedes-Benz E-Class, and the Volvo S90. * No data. Data is important, but not the most important part of autonomous driving. IP related to sensor technology and simulation systems are winners. * No control over the distribution network. This is only an advantage when you want to gain a short-term monopoly, like Tesla had to do. As it stands, most car-manufacturers already have full vertical integration to the customer. Prices are fixed. Service intervals are fixed. Components are fixed. It's just that the capital investments in a distribution system are immense, and not related to the core structure of car manufacture. [1] ttps://www.daimler.com/innovation/case/electric/battery-cells.html [2] https://www.truedelta.com/car-reliability-by-brand https://www.truedelta.com/car-reliability-by-brand [3] https://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/tesla-ota-update-breaks-autopilot-instead-of-fixing-it/ https://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/tesla-ota-update-breaks-a... [4] https://www.autopilotreview.com/tesla-autopilot-accidents-causes/ https://www.autopilotreview.com/tesla-autopilot-accidents-ca...
anth_anm 8y ago
> No OTA systems That's a strong selling point. > Crappy entertainment systems are android auto and carplay crappy? I just want my music controls. I don't need to be entertained beyond that. Massive safety issue. > Poor self-driving tech and almost zero data Tesla doesn't have good self driving tech.

JumpCrisscross 8y ago

> No battery tech I thought Tesla’s batteries are fairly run of the mill. The competitive advantage is they’re producing them at scale. That’s a moat, but an expensive one to maintain. Cutting prices would seem to remain a mistake.

TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
Doesn't Tesla's batteries really mean Panasonic's batteries? Gigafactory 1 is a joint venture with Panasonic. What's stopping any of the other vehicle manufacturers from entering a joint venture agreement with any of the other large battery manufacturers?
- rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago
  You're confusing battery packs with battery cells.
- clouddrover 8y ago
  Nothing. Toyota has a joint venture with Panasonic: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-01-22/toyota-panasonic-battery-venture-is-an-electric-car-power-shift https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-01-22/toyota...
- kjksf 8y ago
  Panasonic makes battery cells. Think AAA battery. Tesla designed and makes everything else, and that's a lot. The technology that goes into making sure that the battery lasts a long time, works decently in cold and hot, can be charged at high speeds, doesn't explode etc. is very sophisticated and no other car maker has this knowledge in house. Even at the battery cell level Tesla doesn't just rely on Panasonic. Browse LinkedIn a bit and you'll see that they have in-house R&D for battery cells, they sponsor well-known cell-level academic researchers and they just spent over $200 million on Maxwell Technologies to get their cell-level IP. The first thing that stops other car makers from making big moves in the battery space is lack of conviction. They still act like they are only half-convinced that EVs are 100% of their future in very short order (speaking relatively in car business years). And the second thing that stops them is massive investments needed to build their own battery gigafactories. Third is probably lack of internal expertise (which Tesla was building since the days of roadster). Even those most committed (like Volksvagen) project for 2025 maybe 1/4th of (projected) Tesla's production. Fun fact: Volkswagen wants to partner with SK Technologies on battery factories. Reportedly their current supplier (LG Chem) threatened to cut them off if they proceed. It's unprecedented for a supplier to threaten their biggest buyer which should tell you the current distribution of power in battery technology.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
    How do you reconcile your opinions state here with @clouddrover's comment, posted earlier than yours, stating the Toyota and Panasonic are entering a joint venture also?
    - oarsinsync 8y ago
      I expect it's a similar comparison to chips and fabs. Apple designs their own chips, TSMC fabs them. Apple maintains their edge because it's their proprietary design. Tesla may do the same.
      - TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
        I think my point is: Toyota etc. may do the same, no?
- rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago
  Tesla cells are designed to Tesla's proprietary specs. This has just been confirmed: >CATL has been discussing the required specifications for the batteries with Tesla officials, the people said, asking not to be named because the talks are private. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-03-11/tesla-is-said-in-talks-with-battery-giant-catl-for-china-order https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-03-11/tesla-is-...
reportingsjr 8y ago
The physical cells themselves aren't that far ahead of the game (although they are definitely a little bit ahead on the cells), but the whole battery module is leagues ahead of anyone else. The performance and degradation of the battery packs is absolutely unparalleled at this time and it remains to be seen when any other company will catch up to them.
- rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago
  Then why Tesla are far more efficient than all other EVs on the market in 2019: e-Tron, Jaguar I-PACE, Mercedes EQC, all-electric XC40...?
  - reitzensteinm 8y ago
    You're jumping around this thread spamming rabid defenses of Tesla, apparently too quickly to realize that the parent commenter actually agreed with you.
    - rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago
      We still disagree about the cells not being far ahead of the game. >Cells used in Model 3 are the highest energy density cells used in any electric vehicle. We have achieved this by significantly reducing cobalt content per battery pack while increasing nickel content and still maintaining superior thermal stability. The cobalt content of our Nickel-Cobalt-Aluminum cathode chemistry is already lower than next-generation cathodes that will be made by other cell producers with a Nickel-Manganese-Cobalt ratio of 8:1:1. As a result, even with its battery, the gross weight of Model 3 is on par with its gasoline-powered counterparts. http://electrek.co/2018/05/02/tesla-tsla-releases-q1-results-record-revenue-of-3-4-billion-still-wide-losses/ http://electrek.co/2018/05/02/tesla-tsla-releases-q1-results...
      - reitzensteinm 8y ago
        If your intention is to make Tesla look good, you are achieving the opposite with this mindless spam. Popping up in every Tesla thread regurgitating the shit you read on Electrek adds zero value. I'm sure you have nuanced opinions but you aren't taking the time to read, think about and actually answer what you're replying to, so why should anybody care what you have to say? Churchill put it best: A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject.
rcMgD2BwE72F 8y ago
>Cells used in Model 3 are the highest energy density cells used in any electric vehicle. We have achieved this by significantly reducing cobalt content per battery pack while increasing nickel content and still maintaining superior thermal stability. The cobalt content of our Nickel-Cobalt-Aluminum cathode chemistry is already lower than next-generation cathodes that will be made by other cell producers with a Nickel-Manganese-Cobalt ratio of 8:1:1. As a result, even with its battery, the gross weight of Model 3 is on par with its gasoline-powered counterparts. Source: http://ir.tesla.com/static-files/1b240f1e-b519-4b40-b14b-fea44698c3af http://ir.tesla.com/static-files/1b240f1e-b519-4b40-b14b-fea...
anth_anm 8y ago
and other car companies have been securing that supply chain.

edejong 8y ago

Ok, clearly flamebait, but I'll bite: * No battery tech: Daimler currently produces their own batteries [1] so do many competitors * Substandard electric drive trains: you mean the drive trains from Tesla that keep breaking? Check this Truedelta report [2] * No OTA systems: although many brands are developing similar systems, the OTA systems are causing many problems. [3]. In addition, changes in the behaviour of the autopilot system has been a likely contributor to the much-cited deadly Tesla autopilot crash [4]. * No charging network. True, mostly due to vendor lock-in. This is likely to change. In the Netherlands, you can charge your EV almost everywhere. * Crappy entertainment systems. Perhaps... Apple CarPlay could use some improvement. Nevertheless, I'd count this as a very minor point. * Poor self-driving tech. Compared to which other car? They are all level 2 autonomous: Cadillac CT6, a Mercedes-Benz E-Class, and the Volvo S90. * No data. Data is important, but not the most important part of autonomous driving. IP related to sensor technology and simulation systems are winners. * No control over the distribution network. This is only an advantage when you want to gain a short-term monopoly, like Tesla had to do. As it stands, most car-manufacturers already have full vertical integration to the customer. Prices are fixed. Service intervals are fixed. Components are fixed. It's just that the capital investments in a distribution system are immense, and not related to the core structure of car manufacture. [1] ttps://www.daimler.com/innovation/case/electric/battery-cells.html [2] https://www.truedelta.com/car-reliability-by-brand https://www.truedelta.com/car-reliability-by-brand [3] https://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/tesla-ota-update-breaks-autopilot-instead-of-fixing-it/ https://www.digitaltrends.com/cars/tesla-ota-update-breaks-a... [4] https://www.autopilotreview.com/tesla-autopilot-accidents-causes/ https://www.autopilotreview.com/tesla-autopilot-accidents-ca...

anth_anm 8y ago

> No OTA systems That's a strong selling point. > Crappy entertainment systems are android auto and carplay crappy? I just want my music controls. I don't need to be entertained beyond that. Massive safety issue. > Poor self-driving tech and almost zero data Tesla doesn't have good self driving tech.