4 ms·

"Mansa Abu-Bakr, ruled the empire until 1312, when he abdicated to go on an expedition. Abu-Bakr was obsessed with the Atlantic Ocean and what lay beyond it. He

"Mansa Abu-Bakr, ruled the empire until 1312, when he abdicated to go on an expedition. Abu-Bakr was obsessed with the Atlantic Ocean and what lay beyond it. He reportedly embarked on an expedition with a fleet of 2000 ships and thousands of men, women and slaves. They sailed off, never to return." I wonder how America would have looked like if an African power could manage to establish colonies almost 200 years before Europeans. The technological superiority probably wasn't there but the presumed pandemics caused by the contact may still have provided the invaders an advantage. If nothing else, that would have provided the American natives some additional experience before facing the Europeans.

dentemple 8y ago
It certainly might have been possible for them to reach Brazil, if they had set off in the right direction and could weather any storms. I wonder, though, if Mali would have found the place as hostile as Vikings found North America.
novacole 8y ago
Well if Mali has 2000 ships, that would have been “technologically superior” to what the native Americans would have had, since they had boats, not ships. But Mali also had guns so I’m not sure how Mali couldn’t have been seen as more technologically advanced. I’m asking out of actual curiosity.
- restalis 8y ago
  "that would have been «technologically superior» to what the native Americans would have had, since they had boats, not ships" Technological superiority as in "the air [or aura] of invincibility"¹ that conquistadors acquired in their campaigns. That required quite a difference in military capabilities and skill to leverage that superiority into an exploitable psychological effect. I'm sure there were plenty of technological advantages over native Americans, but I'm not so sure that those were enough to have the same impact as that had for the later Spanish conquest force. "Mali also had guns so I’m not sure how Mali couldn’t have been seen as more technologically advanced" I doubt that gunpowder had at that time a significant use in Middle East², let alone in some far western parts of Africa. That use was initially reduced to casted-on-the-spot direction-fixed heavy bombards, used in fortress sieges, not against dispersed groups of infantry. It took time for technology to be developed into hand-wielding guns like the Arquebus. Add to that it would have been a stretch for some attacking force accustomed to dry weather to rely on gunpowder in (probably unexpected) tropical/equatorial wetlands. ¹ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cajamarca https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cajamarca ² https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder#Middle_East https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder#Middle_East
- pacala 8y ago
  "Reportedly" had 2000 ships. The whole article is full of "reportedly" whenever it comes to hard numbers. She appears to be cherry picking outlandish accounts that are not corroborated with other sources. For comparison, the Spanish armada, in 1588, posing a major challenge to British rule of the seas, had 130 ships. From what I can tell, the distance from Dakkar, the Atlantic port that appears in the map from the article to Lisbon [Atlantic port in Iberic peninsula] is ~1700 miles, while the distance from Lisbon to London is ~1000 miles. A force more than 10 times larger than the Spanish Armada only twice as far should have been a sight to behold, and reckon by European nations. Heck, if Abu-Bakr had cross-Atlantic ambitions, his navy should have long reached Europe. Yet, the mighty Mali navy is mysteriously a footnote in [or absent from] contemporary European maritime accounts. This belongs to click-bait sites [copiously cited in the article] like money.com, celebritynetworth.com or smartasset.com, and not on the BBC. How the mighty have fallen...
  - chewz 8y ago
    Not to argue with your arguments but it wouldn't had been so easy to sail from Dakar to Lisboa due to prevailing winds. Sailing to America would be much easier.
    - pacala 8y ago
      Fair enough, I'm not a maritime buff. Here's a bit more info to confirm your point [0]. I was thinking more of intermediate stops, specifically Canary islands and Morocco coast, which could have made the voyage easier, and allow the gradual development of navigational prowess in the first place. Speaking of intermediate stops, you'd expect a fleet of 2000 ships sailing to Americas to be borne out of a maritime culture with a significant footprint. You'd expect said culture to leave some archeological traces in the Cape Verde islands, which are only 400 miles straight to the west of Dakkar. I have never heard of any hard evidence of massive Mali empire / West African fleets traveling to Cape Verde islands on a regular basis. According to Wikipedia: > Before the arrival of Europeans, the Cape Verde Islands were uninhabited.[12] The islands of the Cape Verde archipelago were discovered by Genoese and Portuguese navigators around 1456. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevailing_winds https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevailing_winds [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Verde#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Verde#History
aylmao 8y ago
> The technological superiority probably wasn't there but the presumed pandemics caused by the contact may still have provided the invaders an advantage. Assuming there would've been a clash at all. The kingdom of Cusco (precursor to the Incan empire) didn't start its huge expansion until 1438 under the command of Sapa Inca [1]. The Aztecs didn't found their capital until 1325. The Mayas were already past what seems to have been the peak of their civilization [3]. That's not to say there weren't powerful city-states in the region, and they probably would've unified under a shared enemy. If contact with Europeans is any indication, at least some natives would've opted to ally with the newcomers and Mansa Abu-Bakr probably would've done best accepting diplomacy. If at all. Depending on where they land, they might've encountered land outside the influence of a powerful city-state (and empire). Assuming they would've tried to keep contact with Mali, and so open a permanent route, this could've been huge. > If nothing else, that would have provided the American natives some additional experience before facing the Europeans. If going for the theory above, where they settle a colony, perhaps skrimkish and go to war a cuploe of times, but are able to hold their ground, make a couple of allies and keep contact with Africa, they would've introduced the locals to a wealth of new knowledge, technology, and goods. And vice-versa, they would've learned a lot too. Would it have meant Europeans caught wind of the American continent earlier, and thus colonization would've happened sooner? The black death happened from 1347 to 1351 so Europans at large were busy. The 100 year war between France and England happened from 1337 to 1453. There doesn't seem to have been much happening in Spain in the 14th century [6], but they weren't a single, unified kingdom until the marriage of Isabella I of Castile and Ferdinand II of Aragon [7] in the 15th century. I wonder if the separate kingdoms would've had the political/economic capital to fund a full-fledged expedition to the Americas. Portugal was relativley stable, but still seemingly having some quarels with the Spanish kingdoms [8]. In any case, they formed their royal navy in 1317, so they do sound like the country that could've (and would've) jumped to an expedition across the Atlantic soonest had they caught wind of the new world. Except, of course, Africans and Portuguese/Spanish were at war. In fact, Islam and Christianity at large were at war. Would they have caught wind? Would they have believed it? Would Mali had been able to stop them from establishing long-lasting colonies in the Americas? I guess we'll never know and this comment is already getting too long, but it's interesting to think about nonetheless. The world would probably be a very different place for sure though. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inca_Empire#Kingdom_of_Cusco https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inca_Empire#Kingdom_of_Cusco [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztecs#Mexica_migration_and_foundation_of_Tenochtitlan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztecs#Mexica_migration_and_fo... [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_civilization#Postclassic_period_(c._950%E2%80%931539_AD) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_civilization#Postclassic_... [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Death [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred_Years%27_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred_Years%27_War [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Spanish_history#14th_century https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Spanish_history#14... [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isabella_I_of_Castile#Birth_of_Spain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isabella_I_of_Castile#Birth_of... [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portugal_in_the_Middle_Ages#Afonso_IV https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portugal_in_the_Middle_Ages#Af...
smacktoward 8y ago
If you want to play with these ideas a little, the excellent game Crusader Kings 2 (https://www.paradoxplaza.com/crusader-kings-ii/CKCK02GSK-MASTER.html https://www.paradoxplaza.com/crusader-kings-ii/CKCK02GSK-MAS...) has a $5 DLC called Sunset Invasion that's worth picking up. It causes your session playing through 700 years of medieval European history to be interrupted at a random point by an cross-Atlantic invasion of Aztec conquistadors, who bring with them their own religion and strange new diseases. The game disables this invasion by default, so you don't have to worry about it wrenching your playthrough in weird new directions unless you want it to. But it's a fun little way to shake up the usual with a bit of alternate history.

dentemple 8y ago

It certainly might have been possible for them to reach Brazil, if they had set off in the right direction and could weather any storms. I wonder, though, if Mali would have found the place as hostile as Vikings found North America.

novacole 8y ago

Well if Mali has 2000 ships, that would have been “technologically superior” to what the native Americans would have had, since they had boats, not ships. But Mali also had guns so I’m not sure how Mali couldn’t have been seen as more technologically advanced. I’m asking out of actual curiosity.

restalis 8y ago
"that would have been «technologically superior» to what the native Americans would have had, since they had boats, not ships" Technological superiority as in "the air [or aura] of invincibility"¹ that conquistadors acquired in their campaigns. That required quite a difference in military capabilities and skill to leverage that superiority into an exploitable psychological effect. I'm sure there were plenty of technological advantages over native Americans, but I'm not so sure that those were enough to have the same impact as that had for the later Spanish conquest force. "Mali also had guns so I’m not sure how Mali couldn’t have been seen as more technologically advanced" I doubt that gunpowder had at that time a significant use in Middle East², let alone in some far western parts of Africa. That use was initially reduced to casted-on-the-spot direction-fixed heavy bombards, used in fortress sieges, not against dispersed groups of infantry. It took time for technology to be developed into hand-wielding guns like the Arquebus. Add to that it would have been a stretch for some attacking force accustomed to dry weather to rely on gunpowder in (probably unexpected) tropical/equatorial wetlands. ¹ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cajamarca https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Cajamarca ² https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder#Middle_East https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder#Middle_East
pacala 8y ago
"Reportedly" had 2000 ships. The whole article is full of "reportedly" whenever it comes to hard numbers. She appears to be cherry picking outlandish accounts that are not corroborated with other sources. For comparison, the Spanish armada, in 1588, posing a major challenge to British rule of the seas, had 130 ships. From what I can tell, the distance from Dakkar, the Atlantic port that appears in the map from the article to Lisbon [Atlantic port in Iberic peninsula] is ~1700 miles, while the distance from Lisbon to London is ~1000 miles. A force more than 10 times larger than the Spanish Armada only twice as far should have been a sight to behold, and reckon by European nations. Heck, if Abu-Bakr had cross-Atlantic ambitions, his navy should have long reached Europe. Yet, the mighty Mali navy is mysteriously a footnote in [or absent from] contemporary European maritime accounts. This belongs to click-bait sites [copiously cited in the article] like money.com, celebritynetworth.com or smartasset.com, and not on the BBC. How the mighty have fallen...
- chewz 8y ago
  Not to argue with your arguments but it wouldn't had been so easy to sail from Dakar to Lisboa due to prevailing winds. Sailing to America would be much easier.
  - pacala 8y ago
    Fair enough, I'm not a maritime buff. Here's a bit more info to confirm your point [0]. I was thinking more of intermediate stops, specifically Canary islands and Morocco coast, which could have made the voyage easier, and allow the gradual development of navigational prowess in the first place. Speaking of intermediate stops, you'd expect a fleet of 2000 ships sailing to Americas to be borne out of a maritime culture with a significant footprint. You'd expect said culture to leave some archeological traces in the Cape Verde islands, which are only 400 miles straight to the west of Dakkar. I have never heard of any hard evidence of massive Mali empire / West African fleets traveling to Cape Verde islands on a regular basis. According to Wikipedia: > Before the arrival of Europeans, the Cape Verde Islands were uninhabited.[12] The islands of the Cape Verde archipelago were discovered by Genoese and Portuguese navigators around 1456. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevailing_winds https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prevailing_winds [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Verde#History https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cape_Verde#History

aylmao 8y ago

> The technological superiority probably wasn't there but the presumed pandemics caused by the contact may still have provided the invaders an advantage. Assuming there would've been a clash at all. The kingdom of Cusco (precursor to the Incan empire) didn't start its huge expansion until 1438 under the command of Sapa Inca [1]. The Aztecs didn't found their capital until 1325. The Mayas were already past what seems to have been the peak of their civilization [3]. That's not to say there weren't powerful city-states in the region, and they probably would've unified under a shared enemy. If contact with Europeans is any indication, at least some natives would've opted to ally with the newcomers and Mansa Abu-Bakr probably would've done best accepting diplomacy. If at all. Depending on where they land, they might've encountered land outside the influence of a powerful city-state (and empire). Assuming they would've tried to keep contact with Mali, and so open a permanent route, this could've been huge. > If nothing else, that would have provided the American natives some additional experience before facing the Europeans. If going for the theory above, where they settle a colony, perhaps skrimkish and go to war a cuploe of times, but are able to hold their ground, make a couple of allies and keep contact with Africa, they would've introduced the locals to a wealth of new knowledge, technology, and goods. And vice-versa, they would've learned a lot too. Would it have meant Europeans caught wind of the American continent earlier, and thus colonization would've happened sooner? The black death happened from 1347 to 1351 so Europans at large were busy. The 100 year war between France and England happened from 1337 to 1453. There doesn't seem to have been much happening in Spain in the 14th century [6], but they weren't a single, unified kingdom until the marriage of Isabella I of Castile and Ferdinand II of Aragon [7] in the 15th century. I wonder if the separate kingdoms would've had the political/economic capital to fund a full-fledged expedition to the Americas. Portugal was relativley stable, but still seemingly having some quarels with the Spanish kingdoms [8]. In any case, they formed their royal navy in 1317, so they do sound like the country that could've (and would've) jumped to an expedition across the Atlantic soonest had they caught wind of the new world. Except, of course, Africans and Portuguese/Spanish were at war. In fact, Islam and Christianity at large were at war. Would they have caught wind? Would they have believed it? Would Mali had been able to stop them from establishing long-lasting colonies in the Americas? I guess we'll never know and this comment is already getting too long, but it's interesting to think about nonetheless. The world would probably be a very different place for sure though. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inca_Empire#Kingdom_of_Cusco https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inca_Empire#Kingdom_of_Cusco [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztecs#Mexica_migration_and_foundation_of_Tenochtitlan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztecs#Mexica_migration_and_fo... [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_civilization#Postclassic_period_(c._950%E2%80%931539_AD) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maya_civilization#Postclassic_... [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Death https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Death [5]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred_Years%27_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hundred_Years%27_War [6]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Spanish_history#14th_century https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Spanish_history#14... [7]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isabella_I_of_Castile#Birth_of_Spain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isabella_I_of_Castile#Birth_of... [8]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portugal_in_the_Middle_Ages#Afonso_IV https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portugal_in_the_Middle_Ages#Af...

smacktoward 8y ago

If you want to play with these ideas a little, the excellent game Crusader Kings 2 (https://www.paradoxplaza.com/crusader-kings-ii/CKCK02GSK-MASTER.html https://www.paradoxplaza.com/crusader-kings-ii/CKCK02GSK-MAS...) has a $5 DLC called Sunset Invasion that's worth picking up. It causes your session playing through 700 years of medieval European history to be interrupted at a random point by an cross-Atlantic invasion of Aztec conquistadors, who bring with them their own religion and strange new diseases. The game disables this invasion by default, so you don't have to worry about it wrenching your playthrough in weird new directions unless you want it to. But it's a fun little way to shake up the usual with a bit of alternate history.