4 ms·

So are newspaper headlines. Big tobacco didn't create e-cigs and in my experience quitting e-cigs was easy, but cigarettes nearly impossible. Maybe it was all

by dade_ 8y ago

So are newspaper headlines. Big tobacco didn't create e-cigs and in my experience quitting e-cigs was easy, but cigarettes nearly impossible. Maybe it was all about the additives, but I guess no one is sure yet: https://ec.europa.eu/health/scientific_committees/opinions_layman/tobacco/en/index.htm#5 https://ec.europa.eu/health/scientific_committees/opinions_l... Also, if e-cigs turn out to be safe, or can be made safe, what is the problem? Just a bunch of puritan's with their underwear in a knot.

mactyler 8y ago
Having gone through the experiences you describe, your opinions match my own perfectly. I don't think most people that have not gone through it themselves will really understand the topic in this way. I know that you could have never convinced "prior experience me" of what I eventually found out along the way. I also highly don't recommend it. There are also dozens of exact relatable addictions that are represented in completely different ways such as coffee, social media and sugar by society. Not sure I get the newspaper headlines analogy though.
bsder 8y ago
E-cigs are not safe, and we know this. They are just more safe than straight cigarettes (not exactly a high bar). The primary issue is that Big Tobacco is marketing to children, again, with the goal to get children who currently wouldn't use cigarettes. That needs to get stomped on.
- honkycat 8y ago
  > E-cigs are not safe, and we know this. Do you mind providing a source for this claim? :)
  - krige 8y ago
    http://apps.who.int/gb/fctc/PDF/cop6/FCTC_COP6_10-en.pdf http://apps.who.int/gb/fctc/PDF/cop6/FCTC_COP6_10-en.pdf paragraphs 12 onward
    - dnbgfher 8y ago
      I don't see much in there that is relevant to vaping in general being unsafe. The main concerns seem to be related to non-nicotine contents of the liquids being used. While that is certainly an issue to keep in mind when talking about current vape usage, it should be something that is addressable without getting rid of vaping altogether. The only concern specific to nicotine seems to be the possibility of spills leading to overdoses. I suspect this is minor enough to ignore entirely, but if not then better education and even product design can be used to address this. Otherwise the section referenced said nicotine does not seem to be a carcinogen but some people suspect it may be a tumor promoter. If we're drawing the line at "suspected to be involved in cancer somehow but doesn't cause it" then we're going to have to rework most of society and then some. The only other thing that stood out was the particulates issue, though they didn't mention any health effects of being exposed to the particulates and I don't have that knowledge off-hand.
dmead 8y ago
yea, they aren't safe and that's been understood.
sosilkj 8y ago
"if e-cigs turn out to be safe, or can be made safe, what is the problem?" This is weasle-wording. "Just a bunch of puritan's with their underwear in a knot." Reframing the debate in moralistic terms is not useful here. It's a public health issue, plain and simple. If there is research that you are privy to that shows nicotine to be harmless, please share it with us; don't keep it to yourself.
- gizmo686 8y ago
  The original cigarette epidemic led to a massive public campaign demonizing ciagerettes (justifiably so). This campaign (like all succesful PR compaigns) was very much conducted on moralistic terms [0]. Now, there is a public health discussion to be had about e-cigarettes, however they have inherited much of the moral baggage that we attached to traditional cigarettes (as well as much of the public perception of safety we have attached to traditional cigarettes). If you are reading something in the opinion section of a general purpose news paper, odds are you are reading a moralistic piece. That is not the place where technical discussions of public policy occur. [0] This is not to say the motivations of those conducting it were moralistic, but many of the compagns themselves were, and cigarettes are now widely viewed as a moral failing.
  - boudin 8y ago
    I wouldn't call the campaign demonizing, it's not like cigarettes are just a slightly bad for your health... There's way enough studies to back campaigns against it. I wouldn't call this moralistic... I have the feeling that with vaping there's a "safe until proven unsafe" factor... The fact that it is used as a way to get people away from cigarettes tends to make think that it can just be better, which might be true, but at the same time there's absolutly no knowledge about long term effects. Personally I think it would make sense to apply tobacco regulations to vaping. For safety purpose as well as respect for non smoker/vapers. I know for a fact from people who worked for BAT that it is now a big part of their strategy. When I see news like this, i can't help but make a parallel with tobacco lobbying: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-45212444 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-45212444
- 8y ago
DanBC 8y ago
E cigs are far safer than tobacco, so converting smokers to vaping is a good thing. We don't know if they're actually safe, and we don't know how addictive they are, and so the precautionary principle tells us not to recommend vaping to people who are not already smokers. Small amounts of harm across an entire population adds up. We have very good reason to be wary of any action taken by tobacco companies because of their many years of abusive practices. An abundance of caution around tobacco companies isn't a bad thing.

by dade_ 8y ago

mactyler 8y ago

Having gone through the experiences you describe, your opinions match my own perfectly. I don't think most people that have not gone through it themselves will really understand the topic in this way. I know that you could have never convinced "prior experience me" of what I eventually found out along the way. I also highly don't recommend it. There are also dozens of exact relatable addictions that are represented in completely different ways such as coffee, social media and sugar by society. Not sure I get the newspaper headlines analogy though.

bsder 8y ago

E-cigs are not safe, and we know this. They are just more safe than straight cigarettes (not exactly a high bar). The primary issue is that Big Tobacco is marketing to children, again, with the goal to get children who currently wouldn't use cigarettes. That needs to get stomped on.

honkycat 8y ago
> E-cigs are not safe, and we know this. Do you mind providing a source for this claim? :)
- krige 8y ago
  http://apps.who.int/gb/fctc/PDF/cop6/FCTC_COP6_10-en.pdf http://apps.who.int/gb/fctc/PDF/cop6/FCTC_COP6_10-en.pdf paragraphs 12 onward
  - dnbgfher 8y ago
    I don't see much in there that is relevant to vaping in general being unsafe. The main concerns seem to be related to non-nicotine contents of the liquids being used. While that is certainly an issue to keep in mind when talking about current vape usage, it should be something that is addressable without getting rid of vaping altogether. The only concern specific to nicotine seems to be the possibility of spills leading to overdoses. I suspect this is minor enough to ignore entirely, but if not then better education and even product design can be used to address this. Otherwise the section referenced said nicotine does not seem to be a carcinogen but some people suspect it may be a tumor promoter. If we're drawing the line at "suspected to be involved in cancer somehow but doesn't cause it" then we're going to have to rework most of society and then some. The only other thing that stood out was the particulates issue, though they didn't mention any health effects of being exposed to the particulates and I don't have that knowledge off-hand.

dmead 8y ago

yea, they aren't safe and that's been understood.

sosilkj 8y ago

"if e-cigs turn out to be safe, or can be made safe, what is the problem?" This is weasle-wording. "Just a bunch of puritan's with their underwear in a knot." Reframing the debate in moralistic terms is not useful here. It's a public health issue, plain and simple. If there is research that you are privy to that shows nicotine to be harmless, please share it with us; don't keep it to yourself.

gizmo686 8y ago
The original cigarette epidemic led to a massive public campaign demonizing ciagerettes (justifiably so). This campaign (like all succesful PR compaigns) was very much conducted on moralistic terms [0]. Now, there is a public health discussion to be had about e-cigarettes, however they have inherited much of the moral baggage that we attached to traditional cigarettes (as well as much of the public perception of safety we have attached to traditional cigarettes). If you are reading something in the opinion section of a general purpose news paper, odds are you are reading a moralistic piece. That is not the place where technical discussions of public policy occur. [0] This is not to say the motivations of those conducting it were moralistic, but many of the compagns themselves were, and cigarettes are now widely viewed as a moral failing.
- boudin 8y ago
  I wouldn't call the campaign demonizing, it's not like cigarettes are just a slightly bad for your health... There's way enough studies to back campaigns against it. I wouldn't call this moralistic... I have the feeling that with vaping there's a "safe until proven unsafe" factor... The fact that it is used as a way to get people away from cigarettes tends to make think that it can just be better, which might be true, but at the same time there's absolutly no knowledge about long term effects. Personally I think it would make sense to apply tobacco regulations to vaping. For safety purpose as well as respect for non smoker/vapers. I know for a fact from people who worked for BAT that it is now a big part of their strategy. When I see news like this, i can't help but make a parallel with tobacco lobbying: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-45212444 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-45212444
8y ago

DanBC 8y ago

E cigs are far safer than tobacco, so converting smokers to vaping is a good thing. We don't know if they're actually safe, and we don't know how addictive they are, and so the precautionary principle tells us not to recommend vaping to people who are not already smokers. Small amounts of harm across an entire population adds up. We have very good reason to be wary of any action taken by tobacco companies because of their many years of abusive practices. An abundance of caution around tobacco companies isn't a bad thing.