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> It's all about the packaging industry and profit. Everything is about profit. The invention of the assembly line was about profit. Toothpaste is about profit

> It's all about the packaging industry and profit. Everything is about profit. The invention of the assembly line was about profit. Toothpaste is about profit. YC companies are about profit. It’s how our society works, and it’s not enough to just claim it’s about profit and call it a day. Good things are also about profit. What makes this bad? The lack of pricing in negative externalities. That is the root of all capitalist evil. Global warming, micro plastics, holes in the ozone layer, all of it can be traced back to negative externalities not properly priced in. Once you do that: saving the planet becomes about profit. And something tells me, we’d be pretty good at saving the planet, if there were money to be made… :)

NeedMoreTea 8y ago
Before the neoliberal revolution globally, and the Thatcher+Reagan dogma, there was an awful lot that was not about profit that did not require a communist state. Things were done "for the good of the nation/town", or just because it was thought good to do. The NHS was not about profit. Flowers outside the town hall were not about profit. Nor were youth clubs, libraries, parks or a free town swimming pool. It is the fashion, and it is a fashion, for small government that comes with neoliberalism which has made everything about profit. Most countries (as opposed to shareholders) are worse off in many ways as a result. Not every state sale provided benefit, nor every privatised industry more efficient. I fully agree that pricing in externalities and environmental costs should be in all goods. Nothing to do with profit though. It's the only way to compare in a market economy. I also tend to sympathy with Keynes in aspiring for a middle ground somewhere between rampant market dystopia and communist dystopia.
- frankbreetz 8y ago
  I agree with you completely. Imagine if Libraries didn't already exist and the US Government tried to implement a Public Library. Fox New would have a field day.
  - maxxxxx 8y ago
    Good point. Or think about the Interstate system. No way the country could so such a thing today.
    - frosted-flakes 8y ago
      Inter-state what? Trading? Highways?
      - frankbreetz 8y ago
        I think he meant Interstate highways, such a large infrastructure project would be impossible to get through congress today. I hope that the attitude towards these types of projects change soon. America could be such a better place if we could invest in our infrastructure and citizens
        maxxxxx 8y ago
        I think stuff like this is what made America great so the MAGA guys should be all for it.
      - maxxxxx 8y ago
        Highways.
- Kaiyou 8y ago
  You mean like free software/open-source? Don't know about other people, but I don't tend to leave my home all that much, so flowers outside town hall, clubs, libraries etc. are all things I don't care all that much for. Maybe that has to do with it.
trophycase 8y ago
You're not wrong, similar to how certain organisms make a niche out of decomposing other creatures, it seems like all the garbage we produce should contain enough "economic free energy" so to speak, in order to properly recycle most of our waste. Also I mostly agree with your point about externalities. I think a large portion of the evils of capitalism can be attributed to mispriced externalities, but certainly not all of it.
- ScottBurson 8y ago
  What would be an example of an evil of capitalism that is not attributable to mispriced externalities? I have trouble coming up with one myself.
  - mrob 8y ago
    Somebody could be born, by no fault of their own, with a rare disease that would cost more to treat than they can realistically earn, and which insurers can easily detect as a pre-existing condition.
    - xtian 8y ago
      Even if we're speaking just in economic terms, the value of saving a life or the cost of not saving it is lot more complex than their total potential earnings. Failure to take that into account would be the mispricing in this scenario.
  - azernik 8y ago
    Monopolies that underproduce/underinnovate. The 2008 crash involved a combination of a principal-agent problem (between mortgage underwriters and the ultimate sources of capital that bought the CDOs) and the limits of the market as a transmitter of reliable information. The market does not by default transmit its signals in a way that humans respond optimally to (not even from the point of view of their interests). e.g. people discount the future gas savings of a slightly more expensive car in a way that implies an implicit interest rate much higher than the actual one. The market assigns the power to consume (money) in ways that do not reflect actual human values - i.e. the decision that someone whose skills are in demand should be able to consume 4x what their neighbor can, rather than 2x, is not a question of efficiency but of values, and when it comes to the high and low ends the market's values are inhuman.
ip26 8y ago
The lack of pricing in negative externalities. That is the root of all capitalist evil. I have come to a similar conclusion; the funny part is I have observed the most ardent supporters of capitalism and the free market generally seem to plug their ears and go "lalalala" the moment I utter the word "externality"
azernik 8y ago
> The lack of pricing in negative externalities. That is the root of all capitalist evil. There are lots of other kinds of market failures; markets diverge from the Efficient Market Hypothesis in certain quite common conditions, markets can produce monopolies, etc. And even without all of those failures, markets inherently attach an unconscionably disproportionate value to the desires of the wealthy unless a serious redistribution mechanism is layered on top of them.

NeedMoreTea 8y ago

Before the neoliberal revolution globally, and the Thatcher+Reagan dogma, there was an awful lot that was not about profit that did not require a communist state. Things were done "for the good of the nation/town", or just because it was thought good to do. The NHS was not about profit. Flowers outside the town hall were not about profit. Nor were youth clubs, libraries, parks or a free town swimming pool. It is the fashion, and it is a fashion, for small government that comes with neoliberalism which has made everything about profit. Most countries (as opposed to shareholders) are worse off in many ways as a result. Not every state sale provided benefit, nor every privatised industry more efficient. I fully agree that pricing in externalities and environmental costs should be in all goods. Nothing to do with profit though. It's the only way to compare in a market economy. I also tend to sympathy with Keynes in aspiring for a middle ground somewhere between rampant market dystopia and communist dystopia.

frankbreetz 8y ago
I agree with you completely. Imagine if Libraries didn't already exist and the US Government tried to implement a Public Library. Fox New would have a field day.
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  Good point. Or think about the Interstate system. No way the country could so such a thing today.
  - frosted-flakes 8y ago
    Inter-state what? Trading? Highways?
    - frankbreetz 8y ago
      I think he meant Interstate highways, such a large infrastructure project would be impossible to get through congress today. I hope that the attitude towards these types of projects change soon. America could be such a better place if we could invest in our infrastructure and citizens
      - maxxxxx 8y ago
        I think stuff like this is what made America great so the MAGA guys should be all for it.
    - maxxxxx 8y ago
      Highways.
Kaiyou 8y ago
You mean like free software/open-source? Don't know about other people, but I don't tend to leave my home all that much, so flowers outside town hall, clubs, libraries etc. are all things I don't care all that much for. Maybe that has to do with it.

trophycase 8y ago

You're not wrong, similar to how certain organisms make a niche out of decomposing other creatures, it seems like all the garbage we produce should contain enough "economic free energy" so to speak, in order to properly recycle most of our waste. Also I mostly agree with your point about externalities. I think a large portion of the evils of capitalism can be attributed to mispriced externalities, but certainly not all of it.

ScottBurson 8y ago
What would be an example of an evil of capitalism that is not attributable to mispriced externalities? I have trouble coming up with one myself.
- mrob 8y ago
  Somebody could be born, by no fault of their own, with a rare disease that would cost more to treat than they can realistically earn, and which insurers can easily detect as a pre-existing condition.
  - xtian 8y ago
    Even if we're speaking just in economic terms, the value of saving a life or the cost of not saving it is lot more complex than their total potential earnings. Failure to take that into account would be the mispricing in this scenario.
- azernik 8y ago
  Monopolies that underproduce/underinnovate. The 2008 crash involved a combination of a principal-agent problem (between mortgage underwriters and the ultimate sources of capital that bought the CDOs) and the limits of the market as a transmitter of reliable information. The market does not by default transmit its signals in a way that humans respond optimally to (not even from the point of view of their interests). e.g. people discount the future gas savings of a slightly more expensive car in a way that implies an implicit interest rate much higher than the actual one. The market assigns the power to consume (money) in ways that do not reflect actual human values - i.e. the decision that someone whose skills are in demand should be able to consume 4x what their neighbor can, rather than 2x, is not a question of efficiency but of values, and when it comes to the high and low ends the market's values are inhuman.

ip26 8y ago

The lack of pricing in negative externalities. That is the root of all capitalist evil. I have come to a similar conclusion; the funny part is I have observed the most ardent supporters of capitalism and the free market generally seem to plug their ears and go "lalalala" the moment I utter the word "externality"

azernik 8y ago

> The lack of pricing in negative externalities. That is the root of all capitalist evil. There are lots of other kinds of market failures; markets diverge from the Efficient Market Hypothesis in certain quite common conditions, markets can produce monopolies, etc. And even without all of those failures, markets inherently attach an unconscionably disproportionate value to the desires of the wealthy unless a serious redistribution mechanism is layered on top of them.