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I guess I’m not a smart person and my friend group must be full of idiots because concensus among all of us — many of which who have lived in there — is that th

I guess I’m not a smart person and my friend group must be full of idiots because concensus among all of us — many of which who have lived in there — is that the Bay Area is terrible. I would never move back. The lifestyle is very hard, even if you make a lot of money, because the public transportation is insufficient to cover everything you want to do in your life. And the culture is boring and getting worse. I can understand why Americans who have never lived in NY or a nice city outside of the US might think it’s “really hard to find any place on planet earth that’s nicer to live in and to work in”. But this attitude says more about the author than anything inherent to the Bay Area.

witcherchaos 8y ago
I am American who has lived in tokyo, Los Angeles, Seoul, Singapore, New York, Paris, and San Francisco. I can tell you you are wrong. Too long to go into it.
sethhochberg 8y ago
I was guilty of the same kind of thinking when I first moved to San Francisco - it was, at the time, worlds better than the suburban Florida environment that I'd grown up in or the other mid-sized southern cities I'd visited frequently. I fell in love immediately. But after a couple of years, the little cracks in the armor start to show up - outside of a very narrow strip of Market St and the Mission, getting around to other parts of the region is difficult. The weather is good, but certainly not the perfect beachy warmth I was used to as a kid and got monotonous. Most people I met seemed to already have their circles of friends and they centered mostly around who worked where or what hackathons you wanted to do, and that wasn't my ideal weekend scene. Rampant, aggressive homelessness made simply walking through many neighborhoods saddening at best, actively hostile at worst. Credit where its due, I found a lot of solace riding my bike around in the Marin headlands, but I could only really do that a couple of days a week at best. NYC, by comparison, I moved to and didn't immediately fall in love. It was huge and intimidating and I showed up in August when it was humid and moving into my 5th floor walkup was painful. It took a few months to feel comfortable with transit options and like I wasn't solely reliant on maps. But I had an easier time making friends who didn't want to code 24/7, yet still take their professional life seriously. Nightlife is waaaayyy better in NYC, and there are hundreds more options. There is still a homelessness problem, but its generally less in-your-face and less aggressive. Its still expensive, but less so than SF. Sometimes I call a car to go somewhere because the weather is bad or I'm in a hurry, but I rarely feel like there is somewhere I simply cannot get to on public transit. Its the only place I've ever lived where the longer I've been here, the more I've liked it. SF definitely has charm, but like you and your friends, many of my friends and I who have done both find NYC to be a much better example of a functional, diverse, very livable city. I wouldn't trade my time in SF for anything else, it was valuable to a younger version of myself - but I'm happy it propelled me elsewhere.
- godzillabrennus 8y ago
  I moved from SF to NYC last summer and I'm starting to really like it. Prior to being in California I was in Chicago and it was a big upgrade for me professionally being in the room with just tech folks for a few years. Now that I've moved I appreciate more the blending of other industries. It's also cheaper to live in Manhattan than SF these days.
  - baby 8y ago
    Heh funny, I did Chicago first as well and now I'm doing SF. It was also really cool for me to be in Chicago and discover my first tech scene, now SF is a thousand times crazier. I agree with GP, although I really want to like SF but it is hard because I've lived in nicer cities. We've contemplated moving to NYC in the beginning, or after SF if we really don't like it, but I don't see myself living in NYC. It feels like a great big city, without the advantages of the great big cities you have in Europe or Asia.
TomVDB 8y ago
> The lifestyle is very hard, even if you make a lot of money, because the public transportation is insufficient to cover everything you want to do in your life. Public transportation is the limiting factor in determining what you want to do in your life... even if you have a lot of money??? Once I had enough money, I bought a house 20min from work, 15min from an excellent park for mountain biking, 25min from SJC and 45min from SFO. All of that can be done by car much faster than public transportation ever could. Whether or not this is sustainable for a large population is a completely different discussion. But your premise is flawed.
- johan_larson 8y ago
  Yeah, I don't know why anyone would tie themselves to public transit in the US if they had a decent job. US public transit is for people too old, too young, or too poor to have a car, and for people commuting into very dense areas that it is impractical (too expensive) to bring a car into.
  - trophycase 8y ago
    Owning a car is expensive and a pain in the ass, walking to the station every morning is good for you, you can read/relax on a train whereas driving in traffic is a nightmare.
    - vonmoltke 8y ago
      > you can read/relax on a train whereas driving in traffic is a nightmare You have obviously never had to rely on New Jersey Transit.
  - baby 8y ago
    Driving is the worst. I want to be able to walk everywhere, or at least being able to take public transit.
    - johan_larson 8y ago
      That's fine. But there aren't a lot of people like you, and only a few places in the US are a good fit for that kind of lifestyle. It really only works in the densest hearts of the biggest cities, like New York and Chicago, and the odd college town or retirement community. There are reasons why 90+% of US households (and some 97% of households that include a worker) have a car.
trophycase 8y ago
I often tell foreigners that as an American, NYC is the only "real city" in the US, to me. Dense, walkable, and public transportation.
- easyat 8y ago
  Have you been to Chicago
  - robohoe 8y ago
    Chicago is a melting pot of various immigrant cultures. It’s a city literally built by Irish, German, Polish, and Italian immigrants. It also has walkable neighborhoods and public transit that for most part rocks (compared to other US cities). OP would be pleasantly surprised.
ngngngng 8y ago
I LOVE visiting San Fran, but i'm with you. I would never live there. I also know many people that moved from San Francisco to Utah and after they got over the huge culture shock, they absolutely loved it here.
jeffFrom18F 8y ago
It's too bad the author started the article with that line.. I almost stopped reading right there. "Smart" people move here because it's relatively easy to get hired at a job that pays six figures even for the relatively inexperienced. The closing line about "lovely houses" was also a stretch. More like million dollar tract housing. In between though, the article had a lot of interesting points.
peferron 8y ago
Nope, the author is right—for many people, it's hard to find a better place for life and work than the Bay Area, and that's why so many people move here. That's perfectly compatible with you and your friends disliking the Bay Area. For example, it's hard to find a more widely loved movie than the Godfather, yet some people dislike it, and probably argue just like you that people who like the Godfather must do it out of ignorance. This argument doesn't look very solid here, however. Many people in the Bay Area moved in from cities and countries around the the world. I'd expect them to be less ignorant than average about life in other places. Just today at the public library I met a family from France and another one from Canada. I could myself legally move to and find work in any US state or EU country tomorrow. Yet, here we are. At some point you need to realize that 1) liking or disliking a place is intensely personal, and 2) you don't need to seek validation for your personal choices even if they diverge from the mainstream.

witcherchaos 8y ago

I am American who has lived in tokyo, Los Angeles, Seoul, Singapore, New York, Paris, and San Francisco. I can tell you you are wrong. Too long to go into it.

sethhochberg 8y ago

I was guilty of the same kind of thinking when I first moved to San Francisco - it was, at the time, worlds better than the suburban Florida environment that I'd grown up in or the other mid-sized southern cities I'd visited frequently. I fell in love immediately. But after a couple of years, the little cracks in the armor start to show up - outside of a very narrow strip of Market St and the Mission, getting around to other parts of the region is difficult. The weather is good, but certainly not the perfect beachy warmth I was used to as a kid and got monotonous. Most people I met seemed to already have their circles of friends and they centered mostly around who worked where or what hackathons you wanted to do, and that wasn't my ideal weekend scene. Rampant, aggressive homelessness made simply walking through many neighborhoods saddening at best, actively hostile at worst. Credit where its due, I found a lot of solace riding my bike around in the Marin headlands, but I could only really do that a couple of days a week at best. NYC, by comparison, I moved to and didn't immediately fall in love. It was huge and intimidating and I showed up in August when it was humid and moving into my 5th floor walkup was painful. It took a few months to feel comfortable with transit options and like I wasn't solely reliant on maps. But I had an easier time making friends who didn't want to code 24/7, yet still take their professional life seriously. Nightlife is waaaayyy better in NYC, and there are hundreds more options. There is still a homelessness problem, but its generally less in-your-face and less aggressive. Its still expensive, but less so than SF. Sometimes I call a car to go somewhere because the weather is bad or I'm in a hurry, but I rarely feel like there is somewhere I simply cannot get to on public transit. Its the only place I've ever lived where the longer I've been here, the more I've liked it. SF definitely has charm, but like you and your friends, many of my friends and I who have done both find NYC to be a much better example of a functional, diverse, very livable city. I wouldn't trade my time in SF for anything else, it was valuable to a younger version of myself - but I'm happy it propelled me elsewhere.

godzillabrennus 8y ago
I moved from SF to NYC last summer and I'm starting to really like it. Prior to being in California I was in Chicago and it was a big upgrade for me professionally being in the room with just tech folks for a few years. Now that I've moved I appreciate more the blending of other industries. It's also cheaper to live in Manhattan than SF these days.
- baby 8y ago
  Heh funny, I did Chicago first as well and now I'm doing SF. It was also really cool for me to be in Chicago and discover my first tech scene, now SF is a thousand times crazier. I agree with GP, although I really want to like SF but it is hard because I've lived in nicer cities. We've contemplated moving to NYC in the beginning, or after SF if we really don't like it, but I don't see myself living in NYC. It feels like a great big city, without the advantages of the great big cities you have in Europe or Asia.

TomVDB 8y ago

> The lifestyle is very hard, even if you make a lot of money, because the public transportation is insufficient to cover everything you want to do in your life. Public transportation is the limiting factor in determining what you want to do in your life... even if you have a lot of money??? Once I had enough money, I bought a house 20min from work, 15min from an excellent park for mountain biking, 25min from SJC and 45min from SFO. All of that can be done by car much faster than public transportation ever could. Whether or not this is sustainable for a large population is a completely different discussion. But your premise is flawed.

johan_larson 8y ago
Yeah, I don't know why anyone would tie themselves to public transit in the US if they had a decent job. US public transit is for people too old, too young, or too poor to have a car, and for people commuting into very dense areas that it is impractical (too expensive) to bring a car into.
- trophycase 8y ago
  Owning a car is expensive and a pain in the ass, walking to the station every morning is good for you, you can read/relax on a train whereas driving in traffic is a nightmare.
  - vonmoltke 8y ago
    > you can read/relax on a train whereas driving in traffic is a nightmare You have obviously never had to rely on New Jersey Transit.
- baby 8y ago
  Driving is the worst. I want to be able to walk everywhere, or at least being able to take public transit.
  - johan_larson 8y ago
    That's fine. But there aren't a lot of people like you, and only a few places in the US are a good fit for that kind of lifestyle. It really only works in the densest hearts of the biggest cities, like New York and Chicago, and the odd college town or retirement community. There are reasons why 90+% of US households (and some 97% of households that include a worker) have a car.

trophycase 8y ago

I often tell foreigners that as an American, NYC is the only "real city" in the US, to me. Dense, walkable, and public transportation.

easyat 8y ago
Have you been to Chicago
- robohoe 8y ago
  Chicago is a melting pot of various immigrant cultures. It’s a city literally built by Irish, German, Polish, and Italian immigrants. It also has walkable neighborhoods and public transit that for most part rocks (compared to other US cities). OP would be pleasantly surprised.

ngngngng 8y ago

I LOVE visiting San Fran, but i'm with you. I would never live there. I also know many people that moved from San Francisco to Utah and after they got over the huge culture shock, they absolutely loved it here.

jeffFrom18F 8y ago

It's too bad the author started the article with that line.. I almost stopped reading right there. "Smart" people move here because it's relatively easy to get hired at a job that pays six figures even for the relatively inexperienced. The closing line about "lovely houses" was also a stretch. More like million dollar tract housing. In between though, the article had a lot of interesting points.

peferron 8y ago

Nope, the author is right—for many people, it's hard to find a better place for life and work than the Bay Area, and that's why so many people move here. That's perfectly compatible with you and your friends disliking the Bay Area. For example, it's hard to find a more widely loved movie than the Godfather, yet some people dislike it, and probably argue just like you that people who like the Godfather must do it out of ignorance. This argument doesn't look very solid here, however. Many people in the Bay Area moved in from cities and countries around the the world. I'd expect them to be less ignorant than average about life in other places. Just today at the public library I met a family from France and another one from Canada. I could myself legally move to and find work in any US state or EU country tomorrow. Yet, here we are. At some point you need to realize that 1) liking or disliking a place is intensely personal, and 2) you don't need to seek validation for your personal choices even if they diverge from the mainstream.