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It wouldn't, free will has to be a product of Newtonian cause and effect or quantum randomness, neither of these things i define as 'me'. Even adding a soul wo

by cortic 8y ago

It wouldn't, free will has to be a product of Newtonian cause and effect or quantum randomness, neither of these things i define as 'me'. Even adding a soul wouldn't help, i imagined a soul existing in another universe affecting this one; same problem, just 1 universe over, cause and effect or random is still not 'me'. I think the only way to square any version of free will is to radically redefine what the term 'me' means.

naasking 8y ago
> I think the only way to square any version of free will is to radically redefine what the term 'me' means. The problem is that you're employing an incoherent or invalid conception of free will. Free will can be compatible with determinism, eg. Compatibilism.
- cortic 8y ago
  >Compatibilism(from Wikipedia); They define free will as freedom to act according to one's motives without arbitrary hindrance from other individuals or institutions. This only works if we radically redefine the term "one's motives". Which isn't different from redefining what 'me' means. The problem is of course that in a Newtonian universe one's motives is a result of arbitrary past actions outwith our current definition of one's motives. And in a quantum universe one's motives are arbitrary (randomly) generated outwith our current definition of one's motives.
  - naasking 8y ago
    > The problem is of course that in a Newtonian universe one's motives is a result of arbitrary past actions outwith our current definition of one's motives. And in a quantum universe one's motives are arbitrary (randomly) generated outwith our current definition of one's motives. Fortunately, that's not a problem at all for free will and moral responsibility! That's why Compatibilism is now the prevailing paradigm.
    - cortic 8y ago
      Nothing is a problem if we are willing to stick our fingers in our ears and quietly hum la la la. But anyone who wants to square and explain how the common definition of free will works in this universe, still has a problem.
tsimionescu 8y ago
The problem with this line of thinking is that everything we do in our lives, especially rational thought and communication based on it, pre-supposes some sense of free will. In particular, it is well known that if you don't believe in any degree of free will, the stranger quantum effects (or basically any kind of statistical thinking) can be ignored - if the experiment to be run is itself pre-determined, then hidden variables that correlate the behavior of the experiment with the 'decisions' of the experimenter can't be ruled out anymore. Perhaps more fundamentally, if you believe that there is absolutely no free will, then of course this conversation is essentially pointless, eve though we were forced into it by the big bang.
- cortic 8y ago
  The presupposition of everything we do in life may be essentially wrong. >if you believe that there is absolutely no free will, then of course this conversation is essentially pointless If you are absolutely devoted to defining yourself as the ghost in the machine in a world where ghosts have been disproved; But if you can redefine 'you' to mean the machine, then your actions are an extension of who you are. So you can't choose to be someone other than yourself, but what value did that add anyway?

by cortic 8y ago

naasking 8y ago

> I think the only way to square any version of free will is to radically redefine what the term 'me' means. The problem is that you're employing an incoherent or invalid conception of free will. Free will can be compatible with determinism, eg. Compatibilism.

cortic 8y ago
>Compatibilism(from Wikipedia); They define free will as freedom to act according to one's motives without arbitrary hindrance from other individuals or institutions. This only works if we radically redefine the term "one's motives". Which isn't different from redefining what 'me' means. The problem is of course that in a Newtonian universe one's motives is a result of arbitrary past actions outwith our current definition of one's motives. And in a quantum universe one's motives are arbitrary (randomly) generated outwith our current definition of one's motives.
- naasking 8y ago
  > The problem is of course that in a Newtonian universe one's motives is a result of arbitrary past actions outwith our current definition of one's motives. And in a quantum universe one's motives are arbitrary (randomly) generated outwith our current definition of one's motives. Fortunately, that's not a problem at all for free will and moral responsibility! That's why Compatibilism is now the prevailing paradigm.
  - cortic 8y ago
    Nothing is a problem if we are willing to stick our fingers in our ears and quietly hum la la la. But anyone who wants to square and explain how the common definition of free will works in this universe, still has a problem.

tsimionescu 8y ago

The problem with this line of thinking is that everything we do in our lives, especially rational thought and communication based on it, pre-supposes some sense of free will. In particular, it is well known that if you don't believe in any degree of free will, the stranger quantum effects (or basically any kind of statistical thinking) can be ignored - if the experiment to be run is itself pre-determined, then hidden variables that correlate the behavior of the experiment with the 'decisions' of the experimenter can't be ruled out anymore. Perhaps more fundamentally, if you believe that there is absolutely no free will, then of course this conversation is essentially pointless, eve though we were forced into it by the big bang.

cortic 8y ago
The presupposition of everything we do in life may be essentially wrong. >if you believe that there is absolutely no free will, then of course this conversation is essentially pointless If you are absolutely devoted to defining yourself as the ghost in the machine in a world where ghosts have been disproved; But if you can redefine 'you' to mean the machine, then your actions are an extension of who you are. So you can't choose to be someone other than yourself, but what value did that add anyway?