4 ms·

Why Grievances Grow

37 points by randomname2 8y ago

tomlock 8y ago
> A full 80% [of US] believe that “political correctness is a problem in our country.” … The woke are in a clear minority across all ages. … Progressive activists are the only group that strongly backs political correctness: Only 30% see it as a problem. This is because the definition of "political correctness" is different from person to person. It conveniently drifts so people can think they're against some common problem when in reality some people use it to veil homophobia, and others to complain about postmodernism. It's a convenient term, but useless. You call someone politically correct and they'll say no. You learn nothing about their position, you only get to engage in some petty name calling. Feels good, right? Maybe we should stick to the factual matters, the specifics of what legislation and culture is too "politically correct" for you.
- AlexTWithBeard 8y ago
  The article explains what is meant by political correctness in this case: What people mean by “political correctness.” … [is] their day-to-day ability to express themselves: They worry that a lack of familiarity with a topic, or an unthinking word choice, could lead to serious social sanctions for them. It's about a careless word, a misinterpretation, an honest mistake or as little as stating a fact in a questionable context being able to ruin a person's life.
  - tomlock 8y ago
    > They worry that a lack of familiarity with a topic, or an unthinking word choice What topic? What word choice? My point stands.
    - AlexTWithBeard 8y ago
      The article is talking about people using political correctness to bully others. A specific choice of topic and words is not important here.
      - tomlock 8y ago
        Oh but it is, if a choice of words determines if someone is being bullied or not.
        AlexTWithBeard 8y ago
        That's exactly the point: a choice of words should not lead to bullying.
        tomlock 8y ago
        That's not the point the article is making.
        nkurz 8y ago
        I think you are right that few people self-describe as "politically correct". Could you suggest a short alternative phrase that would improve Hanson's article? Or do you feel that word-choice aside, the referent itself does not exist?
        tomlock 8y ago
        Political correctness, as a phrase, does not adequately convey meaning in the same way "common sense" does not.
        nkurz 8y ago
        OK, let's accept that. What's a better phrase that Hanson could use instead, and while still making the same general argument? I agree that "political correctness" is pejorative, but I also think there is some real underlying phenomenon that Hanson is pointing at. What's a less charged term that he can use to better convey his point without creating unnecessary offense?
        tomlock 8y ago
        Perhaps the author could just describe the underlying "real" phenomena. Do you really feel like the author is incapable of doing that? Why?
  - escape_goat 8y ago
    The article explains what the article means by political correctness. The survey question reported in the so-called "Hidden Tribes" report, from which the article derives its statistics, does not explain what is meant by 'political correctness'. It means whatever the respondent thinks it means.
  - cma 8y ago
    According to that I'd say conservative churches and religious University campuses are the biggest PC things out there.
- throwaway2048 8y ago
  Much like being against "special interests", yeah all the bad ones I hate right on!
tptacek 8y ago
This piece opens with quotes from Yascha Mounk's Atlantic story which itself digests the "Hidden Tribes" report from More In Common. I think Mounk's article misrepresents the study; its lede is that large majorities of Americans disfavor "political correctness", but that term is never defined in the study. Meanwhile, according to the same study, a large majority of Americans --- every segment, including the politically disaffected and "traditional conservatives", excluding only the Trump-supporting "devoted conservatives" --- supported limiting dangerous and hateful speech. Notions of "white privilege" and sexual harassment and Islamophobia also find healthy support among segments that sum up to the majority of the study --- you only starkly lose support for them (in the study) among the 25% of the survey that are "conservative". I would say that the report is actually pretty muddy on what Americans as a whole think about PC culture (no surprise, both because the term isn't well-defined and, more importantly, because studying PC culture wasn't the point of the Hidden Tribes study). I would thus say it's pretty dangerous to try to extrapolate from Mounk's extrapolation of Hidden Tribes to conclusions about "grievance" politics.
- AlexTWithBeard 8y ago
  Good point. The way I read the article is that yes in every society some speech is deemed acceptable and some is not. But 80% of respondents think the pendulum has swung a but too far.
  - tptacek 8y ago
    Is that what Yascha Mounk thinks or what his data says? My argument is that the two things are not the same. For instance: "Nowadays, too many ordinary behaviors are labelled as sexual harassment"? 51/49 in favor, not 80/20. "Many white people today don't recognize the real advantages they have"? 52/48 in favor. "Many people nowadays are too sensitive to how Muslims are treated"? 49/51 against. "Today's feminists fight for important issues"? 54/46 in favor. Yes, a clear majority agree with "Political correctness is a problem in our country". But a similarly clear majority, plotted on the same graph, also agree with "Hate speech is problem is our country". And, again, "political correctness" isn't defined and is a fuzzy concept.

37 points by randomname2 8y ago

> A full 80% [of US] believe that “political correctness is a problem in our country.” … The woke are in a clear minority across all ages. … Progressive activists are the only group that strongly backs political correctness: Only 30% see it as a problem. This is because the definition of "political correctness" is different from person to person. It conveniently drifts so people can think they're against some common problem when in reality some people use it to veil homophobia, and others to complain about postmodernism. It's a convenient term, but useless. You call someone politically correct and they'll say no. You learn nothing about their position, you only get to engage in some petty name calling. Feels good, right? Maybe we should stick to the factual matters, the specifics of what legislation and culture is too "politically correct" for you.

AlexTWithBeard 8y ago
The article explains what is meant by political correctness in this case: What people mean by “political correctness.” … [is] their day-to-day ability to express themselves: They worry that a lack of familiarity with a topic, or an unthinking word choice, could lead to serious social sanctions for them. It's about a careless word, a misinterpretation, an honest mistake or as little as stating a fact in a questionable context being able to ruin a person's life.
- tomlock 8y ago
  > They worry that a lack of familiarity with a topic, or an unthinking word choice What topic? What word choice? My point stands.
  - AlexTWithBeard 8y ago
    The article is talking about people using political correctness to bully others. A specific choice of topic and words is not important here.
    - tomlock 8y ago
      Oh but it is, if a choice of words determines if someone is being bullied or not.
      - AlexTWithBeard 8y ago
        That's exactly the point: a choice of words should not lead to bullying.
        tomlock 8y ago
        That's not the point the article is making.
      - nkurz 8y ago
        I think you are right that few people self-describe as "politically correct". Could you suggest a short alternative phrase that would improve Hanson's article? Or do you feel that word-choice aside, the referent itself does not exist?
        tomlock 8y ago
        Political correctness, as a phrase, does not adequately convey meaning in the same way "common sense" does not.
        nkurz 8y ago
        OK, let's accept that. What's a better phrase that Hanson could use instead, and while still making the same general argument? I agree that "political correctness" is pejorative, but I also think there is some real underlying phenomenon that Hanson is pointing at. What's a less charged term that he can use to better convey his point without creating unnecessary offense?
        tomlock 8y ago
        Perhaps the author could just describe the underlying "real" phenomena. Do you really feel like the author is incapable of doing that? Why?
- escape_goat 8y ago
  The article explains what the article means by political correctness. The survey question reported in the so-called "Hidden Tribes" report, from which the article derives its statistics, does not explain what is meant by 'political correctness'. It means whatever the respondent thinks it means.
- cma 8y ago
  According to that I'd say conservative churches and religious University campuses are the biggest PC things out there.
throwaway2048 8y ago
Much like being against "special interests", yeah all the bad ones I hate right on!

tptacek 8y ago

This piece opens with quotes from Yascha Mounk's Atlantic story which itself digests the "Hidden Tribes" report from More In Common. I think Mounk's article misrepresents the study; its lede is that large majorities of Americans disfavor "political correctness", but that term is never defined in the study. Meanwhile, according to the same study, a large majority of Americans --- every segment, including the politically disaffected and "traditional conservatives", excluding only the Trump-supporting "devoted conservatives" --- supported limiting dangerous and hateful speech. Notions of "white privilege" and sexual harassment and Islamophobia also find healthy support among segments that sum up to the majority of the study --- you only starkly lose support for them (in the study) among the 25% of the survey that are "conservative". I would say that the report is actually pretty muddy on what Americans as a whole think about PC culture (no surprise, both because the term isn't well-defined and, more importantly, because studying PC culture wasn't the point of the Hidden Tribes study). I would thus say it's pretty dangerous to try to extrapolate from Mounk's extrapolation of Hidden Tribes to conclusions about "grievance" politics.

AlexTWithBeard 8y ago
Good point. The way I read the article is that yes in every society some speech is deemed acceptable and some is not. But 80% of respondents think the pendulum has swung a but too far.
- tptacek 8y ago
  Is that what Yascha Mounk thinks or what his data says? My argument is that the two things are not the same. For instance: "Nowadays, too many ordinary behaviors are labelled as sexual harassment"? 51/49 in favor, not 80/20. "Many white people today don't recognize the real advantages they have"? 52/48 in favor. "Many people nowadays are too sensitive to how Muslims are treated"? 49/51 against. "Today's feminists fight for important issues"? 54/46 in favor. Yes, a clear majority agree with "Political correctness is a problem in our country". But a similarly clear majority, plotted on the same graph, also agree with "Hate speech is problem is our country". And, again, "political correctness" isn't defined and is a fuzzy concept.