5 ms·

What Android is

212 points by atularora 16y ago

ajg1977 16y ago
"game devs just don’t want to hear about virtual machines, so they use the Android NDK. But game developers revel in pain." No, we revel in portability and performance :) Really good article though.
- barrettcolin 16y ago
  Also, Java as a language is - unless I've missed something in my experience of it - a very bad fit for interacting with the OpenGL API. In particular specifying data in tightly packed or otherwise specifically arranged (interleaved, in particular) forms is next to impossible to achieve without making your code look like a dogs dinner (if you can do it at all). Much easier to do in C, so that's another reason to go native on Android.
samstokes 16y ago
I skimmed to the bottom and read this: "But game developers revel in pain. And that’s what Android is."
- martythemaniak 16y ago
  Ah yes, the Gruber-style humour - snarky, idiotic and completely devoid of any value. No wonder people are leaving HN.
  - dschobel 16y ago
    Whoa, a recursive comment. Very cool.
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- samstokes 16y ago
  For the record: a) I wasn't indicating any negative sentiment against Android, just quoting an amusingly awkward juxtaposition. b) I was kind of expecting the downvotes, so thanks to those who upvoted me back to breakeven (at time of writing)! c) Tim has now amended the article to render "And that's what Android is" like a header instead of body text, indicating he too thought the juxtaposition altered the meaning of the post.
tocomment 16y ago
What should I take away from this?
- lwhi 16y ago
  Maybe ... "If you’re writing code in the Java programming language you can use Eclipse and a pretty nice toolchain that makes the barrier to entry remarkably low." or maybe (as a commentator on the blog mentions) ... "But game developers revel in pain. And that’s what Android is."
- angusgr 16y ago
  I don't know about you personally, but I've seen a lot of people confused about exactly this - "what Android is": its architecture, what's its relationship to Linux is, its relationship to Java, its relationship to open source & GPL, etc. This seems to lay a lot of that out fairly cleanly and simply.
  - theBobMcCormick 16y ago
    Very true. There are a lot of discussions, blog posts, etc. online where people seem to think that Android either is a Linux distribution of some sort, or that it's a Java JVM (like J2SE, etc). In reality it's neither.
nswanberg 16y ago
This is the most useful short summary of Android's pieces I've read--it's part summary and part correction. The "How It’s Generated" section is interesting because Bray points out that it's not important to Android how the native or Dalvik code is generated so long as it uses the APIs. Currently it's most convenient to program in Java but I wonder how long that will remain so.
- quanticle 16y ago
  Well, in theory, it should be possible to create another language that targets the Dalvik VM (or port an existing language). In practice, I don't know how easy that would be.
- roel_v 16y ago
  I wondered though how much of this recent change in emphasis is inspired by recent, ehm, 'changes' in the Java landscape. I seem to remember that Google/Android evangelists put much more emphasis on Java being the language to code for Android, and how the overall picture seemed to be much more Java-centered back then (well only 2 or 3 years ago). Recently I see a bit of 'backpedaling' in that department. I guess by now there's a team at Google working on a replacement for the Java Android development environment, to be able to move away from what is now a tainted platform, so it's all perfectly understandable, and I can understand they need to phase in this transformation to not create shocks in the Android ecosystem; but I still feel a bit manipulated, being talked to in a way that both parties know is doublespeak but nobody being able to do anything about it.
  - theBobMcCormick 16y ago
    There's absolutely zero evidence for your assertion that Google is "moving away" from Java for Android development. Java is still the only official route for creating Android app (I haven't looked at the NDK, but I am under the impression it requires at least a little Java for glue code.. I could be wrong there). However, the possibility for creating Android apps in other languages is not new. For example, the Android Scripting Environment(now called Scripting Layer for Android) was announced on the Google Open Source blog back in June 2009 (http://google-opensource.blogspot.com/2009/06/introducing-android-scripting.html http://google-opensource.blogspot.com/2009/06/introducing-an...), which is positively pre-historic for Android's rather short history (for comparison, see the timeline here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_(operating_system)#Update_history http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_(operating_system)#Upda...). There's nothing in Bray's post that would indicate anything other than a continuation of the same public roadmap Android has had since at least v1.5 was released on the old G1 phones.
cpr 16y ago
Given my Java hatred (perhaps irrational), and no real allegiance to iOS & Cocoa Touch (other than it works very well, and has paid off somewhat for our efforts), I wonder if it would make sense, long-term, to mount an OSS effort to build a truly wonderful dynamic language environment as an alternative to Dalvik? E.g., something based on Javascript, with a fully dynamic remote IDE/editor (along the lines of SLIME)? I guess then you'd run into the problem that the whole Dalvik UI scheme is so heavily intertwined with their Java-based toolkit (just as iOS is heavily dependent on Obj-C) that there's no real gain in the end? (Don't everyone hate me at once. ;-)
- Tichy 16y ago
  Why not use HTML5+JavaScript? Remote IDE here: http://www.cloud9ide.com/ http://www.cloud9ide.com/ I wish somebody had already recreated the native widgets of Android/iOS in HTML.
  - Xuzz 16y ago
    At least on iOS, recreating the "feel" of the scroll views is actually impossible with reasonable performance (the CSS 2d transitions don't have the correct interpolation options), so you can't make anything, at least there, that "feels" native.
    - Tichy 16y ago
      So the browser doesn't scroll natively? Don't know the iOs scroll views... Still, an approximation would be nice, it doesn't have to mimic every teeny detail.
      - Xuzz 16y ago
        It does, but you can't scroll part of the page in the native way -- iOS users are very accustomed to the kinetic scrolling, anything even slightly different is enough to throw them off and make your app seem "weird".
- angusgr 16y ago
mahmud 16y ago
Can we get more respect for "game" developers, please? What Tim calls game developers are actually just systems programmers and performance-conscious hackers, including people doing multimedia DSP apps critical for making the platform a hit, along with traditional game developers. Tim, if you're reading this, can we please get some closure for 3434? Even Mono has OpenTK. Just adopt more of the Khronos stuff and get out of the way. Would be nice if you could beef up the CDD and demand just a bite more from the telcos.
codeape 16y ago
Questions: * Is it possible to use the Android as a Linux development platform? * Can I compile POSIX sources on the Android? * For instance, can I download bash, Vim and Python tarballs to an Android device and build?
- theBobMcCormick 16y ago
  Apparently there is a port of Vim to Android: http://credentiality2.blogspot.com/2010/08/native-vim-for-android.html http://credentiality2.blogspot.com/2010/08/native-vim-for-an... Keep in mind though that Android isn't intended to be a Linux distro or even a Posix'ish OS. It's closer to something like DD-WRT. It is it's own, non-unix embedded OS that just happens to use the Linux kernel as it's base (because really, where's the value in writing your own kernel these days?)

212 points by atularora 16y ago

ajg1977 16y ago

"game devs just don’t want to hear about virtual machines, so they use the Android NDK. But game developers revel in pain." No, we revel in portability and performance :) Really good article though.

barrettcolin 16y ago
Also, Java as a language is - unless I've missed something in my experience of it - a very bad fit for interacting with the OpenGL API. In particular specifying data in tightly packed or otherwise specifically arranged (interleaved, in particular) forms is next to impossible to achieve without making your code look like a dogs dinner (if you can do it at all). Much easier to do in C, so that's another reason to go native on Android.

samstokes 16y ago

I skimmed to the bottom and read this: "But game developers revel in pain. And that’s what Android is."

martythemaniak 16y ago
Ah yes, the Gruber-style humour - snarky, idiotic and completely devoid of any value. No wonder people are leaving HN.
- dschobel 16y ago
  Whoa, a recursive comment. Very cool.
deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
samstokes 16y ago
For the record: a) I wasn't indicating any negative sentiment against Android, just quoting an amusingly awkward juxtaposition. b) I was kind of expecting the downvotes, so thanks to those who upvoted me back to breakeven (at time of writing)! c) Tim has now amended the article to render "And that's what Android is" like a header instead of body text, indicating he too thought the juxtaposition altered the meaning of the post.

tocomment 16y ago

What should I take away from this?

lwhi 16y ago
Maybe ... "If you’re writing code in the Java programming language you can use Eclipse and a pretty nice toolchain that makes the barrier to entry remarkably low." or maybe (as a commentator on the blog mentions) ... "But game developers revel in pain. And that’s what Android is."
angusgr 16y ago
I don't know about you personally, but I've seen a lot of people confused about exactly this - "what Android is": its architecture, what's its relationship to Linux is, its relationship to Java, its relationship to open source & GPL, etc. This seems to lay a lot of that out fairly cleanly and simply.
- theBobMcCormick 16y ago
  Very true. There are a lot of discussions, blog posts, etc. online where people seem to think that Android either is a Linux distribution of some sort, or that it's a Java JVM (like J2SE, etc). In reality it's neither.

nswanberg 16y ago

This is the most useful short summary of Android's pieces I've read--it's part summary and part correction. The "How It’s Generated" section is interesting because Bray points out that it's not important to Android how the native or Dalvik code is generated so long as it uses the APIs. Currently it's most convenient to program in Java but I wonder how long that will remain so.

quanticle 16y ago
Well, in theory, it should be possible to create another language that targets the Dalvik VM (or port an existing language). In practice, I don't know how easy that would be.
roel_v 16y ago
I wondered though how much of this recent change in emphasis is inspired by recent, ehm, 'changes' in the Java landscape. I seem to remember that Google/Android evangelists put much more emphasis on Java being the language to code for Android, and how the overall picture seemed to be much more Java-centered back then (well only 2 or 3 years ago). Recently I see a bit of 'backpedaling' in that department. I guess by now there's a team at Google working on a replacement for the Java Android development environment, to be able to move away from what is now a tainted platform, so it's all perfectly understandable, and I can understand they need to phase in this transformation to not create shocks in the Android ecosystem; but I still feel a bit manipulated, being talked to in a way that both parties know is doublespeak but nobody being able to do anything about it.
- theBobMcCormick 16y ago
  There's absolutely zero evidence for your assertion that Google is "moving away" from Java for Android development. Java is still the only official route for creating Android app (I haven't looked at the NDK, but I am under the impression it requires at least a little Java for glue code.. I could be wrong there). However, the possibility for creating Android apps in other languages is not new. For example, the Android Scripting Environment(now called Scripting Layer for Android) was announced on the Google Open Source blog back in June 2009 (http://google-opensource.blogspot.com/2009/06/introducing-android-scripting.html http://google-opensource.blogspot.com/2009/06/introducing-an...), which is positively pre-historic for Android's rather short history (for comparison, see the timeline here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_(operating_system)#Update_history http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Android_(operating_system)#Upda...). There's nothing in Bray's post that would indicate anything other than a continuation of the same public roadmap Android has had since at least v1.5 was released on the old G1 phones.

cpr 16y ago

Given my Java hatred (perhaps irrational), and no real allegiance to iOS & Cocoa Touch (other than it works very well, and has paid off somewhat for our efforts), I wonder if it would make sense, long-term, to mount an OSS effort to build a truly wonderful dynamic language environment as an alternative to Dalvik? E.g., something based on Javascript, with a fully dynamic remote IDE/editor (along the lines of SLIME)? I guess then you'd run into the problem that the whole Dalvik UI scheme is so heavily intertwined with their Java-based toolkit (just as iOS is heavily dependent on Obj-C) that there's no real gain in the end? (Don't everyone hate me at once. ;-)

Tichy 16y ago
Why not use HTML5+JavaScript? Remote IDE here: http://www.cloud9ide.com/ http://www.cloud9ide.com/ I wish somebody had already recreated the native widgets of Android/iOS in HTML.
- Xuzz 16y ago
  At least on iOS, recreating the "feel" of the scroll views is actually impossible with reasonable performance (the CSS 2d transitions don't have the correct interpolation options), so you can't make anything, at least there, that "feels" native.
  - Tichy 16y ago
    So the browser doesn't scroll natively? Don't know the iOs scroll views... Still, an approximation would be nice, it doesn't have to mimic every teeny detail.
    - Xuzz 16y ago
      It does, but you can't scroll part of the page in the native way -- iOS users are very accustomed to the kinetic scrolling, anything even slightly different is enough to throw them off and make your app seem "weird".
angusgr 16y ago

mahmud 16y ago

Can we get more respect for "game" developers, please? What Tim calls game developers are actually just systems programmers and performance-conscious hackers, including people doing multimedia DSP apps critical for making the platform a hit, along with traditional game developers. Tim, if you're reading this, can we please get some closure for 3434? Even Mono has OpenTK. Just adopt more of the Khronos stuff and get out of the way. Would be nice if you could beef up the CDD and demand just a bite more from the telcos.

codeape 16y ago

Questions: * Is it possible to use the Android as a Linux development platform? * Can I compile POSIX sources on the Android? * For instance, can I download bash, Vim and Python tarballs to an Android device and build?

theBobMcCormick 16y ago
Apparently there is a port of Vim to Android: http://credentiality2.blogspot.com/2010/08/native-vim-for-android.html http://credentiality2.blogspot.com/2010/08/native-vim-for-an... Keep in mind though that Android isn't intended to be a Linux distro or even a Posix'ish OS. It's closer to something like DD-WRT. It is it's own, non-unix embedded OS that just happens to use the Linux kernel as it's base (because really, where's the value in writing your own kernel these days?)