21 ms·

I like to write short stories in my free time. One that I’ve been working on over the last year is one where the concept of “crowdfunded healthcare” evolves in

I like to write short stories in my free time. One that I’ve been working on over the last year is one where the concept of “crowdfunded healthcare” evolves into a dystopian game show where people go on TV and share their sob story on why they need money. Then the viewers at home get to choose who gets the show’s prize money each season through a bracket style voting system that crowns a champion at the end. I had to stop working on it as it got really, really dark the more I wrote. On that note, I find it supremely fucked up that people have to turn to crowdfunding to get their unexpected healthcare costs covered by benevolent internet citizens.

pault 8y ago
Jesus, this blew my mind. Not because the concept is outlandish, but because it wouldn't surprise me at all if it actually existed, and I think it would be immensely popular.
- sharkweek 8y ago
  Yes! It was supposed to be over the top satire with a comical tone, but then it just ended up depressing me because it started to feel far too realistic...
  - bigiain 8y ago
    FWIW, it's not just you. And it's not new. "We are living in interesting times; in fact, they're so interesting that it is not currently possible to write near-future SF." -- Charlie Stross, Sep 2008 http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2008/09/avalanche.html http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2008/09/avalanch...
    - zwkrt 8y ago
      Well Black mirror process this is untrue. I don't think I could be a writer for that show though, just watching it makes me sick.
  - DanielBMarkham 8y ago
    It reminds me a bit "Running Man" by Stephen King. I think King probably had the better idea by having the audience be able to punish wrongdoers instead of helping the downtrodden. If you could add some good mob rule hurt-the-bad-guys to your mix, it could be a hit. And that's messed up.
    - pault 8y ago
      I think the reason a reality show for funding healthcare is so plausible is that it would be filling a gap left by a corrupt and failing system. I don't think anyone believes that there is a gap in the administration of law enforcement and punishment in the US.
      - jfk13 8y ago
        > I don't think anyone believes that there is a gap in the administration of law enforcement and punishment in the US. Take it up a level; I think quite a lot of people believe there's a serious gap in the oversight of law enforcement agencies in the US. Where's the public accountability? So - a reality show that follows police units, and lets the audience vote on which officers should be promoted, sacked, or jailed....
        DanielBMarkham 8y ago
        I haven't seen an internet discussion yet where, whenever a gap is identified, somebody doesn't say something like "How can these people get away with this! There should be a law..." or something similar. So sure. Find the gap, tell the sad story, then follow enforcement folks as they find the people responsible -- with the audience voting for whomever that is and what the punishment should be. In the end the weak and vulnerable are rewarded, the evildoers punished. It's basically every Hollywood movie you've ever seen except the audience gets to vote on the outcome and real people are involved -- the ultimate in reality TV.
- temp1928384 8y ago
  There's one for student debt: https://www.trutv.com/shows/paid-off-with-michael-torpey/index.html https://www.trutv.com/shows/paid-off-with-michael-torpey/ind...
bitcoinmoney 8y ago
Sounds like a black mirror episode? Maybe submit it?
- atm0sphere 8y ago
  Yeah this could definitely be one..it's a lot like the bicycle episode though so not sure they would do it so direct. Maybe they would make one about the stories of individuals who start the crowdfunding campaigns and how they're interconnected, like shut up and dance.
newprint 8y ago
I will be down-voted to hell, but I have worked in health insurance company. Large insurance companies have doctors and layers that basically sit down and make decisions about how much they will pay (if ever) for treatment. Your scenario has real life basis.
- Judgmentality 8y ago
  > I have worked in health insurance company Well I'm convinced.
  - dang 8y ago
    Please don't post unsubstantive comments here.
- eru 8y ago
  Isn't that how it has to work, if you want your insurance premiums to be finite?
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - HarryHirsch 8y ago
    In normal countries treatment guidelines are set by an independent committee of physiciant and ethicists. Britain has the NICE committee. Having the insurance company decide on what treatment will be paid only guarantees infinite payouts to the CEO.
    - maxxxxx 8y ago
      As far as I know NICE decisions are public whereas in the US you can’t know whether they will decline you or not. No transparency
ddebernardy 8y ago
Are you sure there aren't any TV shows that fit that dystopian game show description already? It seems like a no brainer winner for TV stations -- it's a glorified lottery mixed with lots of emotions, and bonus revenue if users vote by SMS. Surely some producer did that somewhere.
ihm 8y ago
Reminds me of this comic from a few weeks ago: http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/speciation http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/speciation
temp1928384 8y ago
There is actually a real game show on TruTV like this except for student debt https://www.trutv.com/shows/paid-off-with-michael-torpey/index.html https://www.trutv.com/shows/paid-off-with-michael-torpey/ind...
conanbatt 8y ago
I think the exact opposite. Without that venue to ask for money the answer is: "get your affairs in order". What is your answer to heavy health expenditures/
- brodsky 8y ago
  Universal healthcare. It works well in the majority of civilized world.
  - conanbatt 8y ago
    In universal care you dont get access to 'clinical trials and research and things like that, where people need access to leading-edge potential treatments' You are also not eliminated the need to get funds, you are changing who you are asking them from. And let me tell you that government officials are seldom generous.
    - Judgmentality 8y ago
      So you believe the US healthcare system is better than, say, the United Kingdom?
      - conanbatt 8y ago
        I dont know the UK health intimately to compare confidently. I can tell you what it looks like with Argentina. that has universal care. Normally anyone with a dime goes private. Public is a lower-quality, cheaper service. That system is great for the poor, most expensive to middle class. I can also tell you what I think are reasons why US healthcare is so expensive, and they are not fixed by universal care programs.
        arcticbull 8y ago
        No, they absolutely are fixed by universal healthcare, as they are everywhere else on earth.
throwaway5752 8y ago
I had seen The Running Man (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Running_Man_(1987_film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Running_Man_(1987_film)) but didn't realize it was set in 2019! That silly trivia aside, it sounds like your would be a great short story in the rich tradition of dystopian art and literature.
- marpstar 8y ago
  I too immediately thought of The Running Man.
Antoninus 8y ago
check out https://watsi.org/ https://watsi.org/
- mattkevan 8y ago
  Came here to post this. Go Fund Me for health, best sob story gets the cash! YC funded too.
drfuchs 8y ago
Your idea of people competing for who has the biggest sob story is pretty much exactly the 1950’s TV show “Queen For A Day” (except that the studio audience did the voting).
- sharkweek 8y ago
  Incredible, turns out I'm WAY behind the times I guess! - I had never heard of this before. This from the Wikipedia article got a groan out of me: "Often the request was for medical care or therapeutic equipment to help a chronically ill child, or might be for a hearing aid, a new washing machine, or a refrigerator. Many women broke down sobbing as they described their plights." And then this: The show became popular enough that NBC increased its running time from 30 to 45 minutes to sell more commercials, at a then-premium rate of $4,000 per minute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_for_a_Day https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_for_a_Day
badfrog 8y ago
The show Undercover Boss is kind of like that. Every episode some CEO realizes that all of their employees are underpaid, picks one with an especially sad story, and gives them some money to pay for their kid's surgery or college tuition.
- jjeaff 8y ago
  I thought the same thing. And they never seem to come to the realization that maybe a lot of their employees are underpaid. No, it's just the ones with stories that go best with violin music playing in the background. And one of the most delusional CEOs was the Hooters guy. He was talking about how he would be perfectly fine with his daughter working at Hooters. Then the manager where he was undercover was found to be a total pig. Making the waitresses compete for time off by eating canned beans with their hands behind their backs. He also talked about "inspecting" the "product" on a daily basis to make sure the customers stay happy. It was a gross display of abuse. Of course, he didn't even fire the manager later. Had this episode not been 10 years ago, I think #metoo would have had both the manager and the CEO fired within a week of the episode airing.
  - hartator 8y ago
    The CEO was a the son of the founder, and was very shy and not very competent for sure. The manager deserved to be fired for sure and probably more.
  - ses1984 8y ago
    I think you need to take what you see on reality TV with a grain of salt. That's the size of the moon.
    - jjeaff 8y ago
      So Hooters worked with the tv show to paint an extremely unflattering picture of their business? Or the show misled viewers and Hooters made no effort to correct the record?
TaylorAlexander 8y ago
One thing I’ve been studying a lot on my free time is the deep history of the concept of socialism. Not a particular implementation but the idea that it would be a good idea for us to intentionally build a world where everyone has certain basic needs met by society at large. In particular there is a rich history of “libertarian socialism” which advocates for direct social support of one another without a state. Typically it is advocated that this be done via organizational structures that do not require any individual to reach in to their pocket when another is in need, but by arranging society such that things like medical care are simply abundant, and only ever putting effort in to unnecessary developments (luxuries) once the basic needs of all people have been met. Obviously doing this is nontrivial and could only be achieved through a long process of repeated democratic decision making. The idea that we could care for one another without a state is both obvious and perplexing. People have always cared for themselves somewhere in the world even if some societies have been highly centralized. All this said, I have been fostering a deep appreciation for socialism as a utopian ideal to be discussed rather than either a bogey man or as something that requires the expansion of state power to realize. Many well meaning leftists have empowered authoritarians in their effort to force their desired outcomes. At the same time, the state as it stands today could be used to materially improve the lives of many impoverished people. I think the answer is to use the state as needed in the short term to help those in need, while recognizing the “technical debt” it creates by ultimately undermining freedom. Any work done with the state should be done cautiously and with the understanding that the state power will need in the long term to be eclipsed by power organized by the people. And we cannot simply advocate for state power - long term we must build these structures inside our society, not rely on state power to enforce our idea of a just society. But we must fight for socialism. I’ve enjoyed these two videos by Murray Bookchin recently. This critique of the left from 1986 is hugely applicable to today (he even mentions Bernie Sanders briefly): https://youtu.be/kBP_BMOblzc https://youtu.be/kBP_BMOblzc This video gets at the way our fantasies about technology can ignore our own desires as human beings, and presents an interesting contrast between then notion of futurism and utopianism: https://youtu.be/wS3-PffLKqM https://youtu.be/wS3-PffLKqM
- hippich 8y ago
  My current world view is that socialism implemented via central authority ruling over a very large group (i.e. socialistic government of USSR) is not working, because personal relationships connections are broken when helping each other is outsourced to some abstract entity. It is that entity being praised and hated when someone gets help or someone doesn't. The fact that it is neighbors, other region people, etc actually are involved in that is lost. No longer you can shame your neighbor for not helping a neighbor, or when they help - they get no word of appreciation. It is all abstracted away behind "They" - "why They did not fix roads?", "They healed my child from cancer", "They produced enormous GDP". This is the opposite of "my neighbor took my wife to the hospital when her waters broke and my car broke too", "our neighborhood resurfaced our road". In fact... The same thoughts probably apply to most modern and developed countries, as most of them has a significant amount of socialistic elements already...
lhorie 8y ago
Not exactly this, but in Brazil there's actually a TV show called "In the red", where the requirement for being a contestant is that they must have debt that they can't pay off. The winner gets to pay off their debt, losers go home empty handed.
ekianjo 8y ago
> On that note, I find it supremely fucked up that people have to turn to crowdfunding to get their unexpected healthcare costs covered by benevolent internet citizens. So who should pay for it? All taxpayers instead? All countries that have tried that are now in the red. The only good solution, I think, it to work to make healthcare a lot cheaper in the long run.
- A2017U1 8y ago
  The US is the only major developed country that doesn't have universal healthcare and they are still deep "in the red".
  - mgkimsal 8y ago
    Exactly. Everyone's 'in the red'. What are people getting for that debt, and who benefits? Elite will always be 'elite', but most other countries people don't have to worry about considering bankruptcy if someone gets an illness requiring hospitalization. For some bizarre reason, we've enshrined "health care" as a "benefit" which is only morally accessible by "employed" people who have "good employers".
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    And we spend more per capita in public funds than any country providing public universal healthcare and, IIRC, about middle of the road in public healthcare spending as a share of GDP for countries providing universal healthcare, and then slightly more in private spending on top of the public spending. The US is literally paying, in public funds, for full universal healthcare (or more!), and paying more in private funds on top.
  - ekianjo 8y ago
    At least the US is developing new drugs. About 99% of other countries produce none.
    - DFHippie 8y ago
      Citation? Also, it's usual when comparing countries to restrict one's comparison to economic peers. If Lesotho or Vatican City aren't funding drug development, this doesn't say a lot about the relative merit of the U.S. system.
dragonwriter 8y ago
Oddly, the only hard to believe thing I see about that scenario as an actual, real thing in the US’s very near future is the use of bracket style voting rather than whole-field voting where some number are eliminated each episode. That would violate a strong trend in the reality competition genre.
- bostik 8y ago
  Well, the entire genre is built around the concept of competitive elimination. Do it with access to healthcare and you sure turn the intensity up on elimination.
  - dragonwriter 8y ago
    > Well, the entire genre is built around the concept of competitive elimination. But bracket-style voting prevents the drama of upsets where a candidate most people think is good-but-not-best gets eliminated while a candidate widely seen as poor but with a dedicated fan base who would easily get clobbered in a bracket (or sensibly aggregated ranked preference) system gets spared by the perversity of an inverse first-past-the-post system. Which drama is no doubt why inverse FPTP is so dominant in the genre, where audience voting is involved. > Do it with access to healthcare and you sure turn the intensity up on elimination. Oh, sure, I'm not arguing against that, just that brackets in particular would be a surprising choice.
AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
The fact that it disturbs you so much is indicative of its value, I think. A lot of people were disturbed by the first Black Mirror episode, but I think it had less to do with the inherently disgusting conceit and more to do with how undeniably realistically events unfolded. It disturbed us because it shone a light on an aspect of our being that should disturb us, and we'd otherwise be content to ignore.
anonytrary 8y ago
Please finish that story! It sounds really good, reminds me of a Black Mirror episode.
leovander 8y ago
I saw a couple people link to the student debt stuff, which is way more relevant, but it reminded me of the Latin American community having Gana La Verde[0] since 2004. A cheap fear factor knock off, where the contestants compete for a green card, in the form representation from an immigration attorney. This usually has the contestants eating a platter of worms in the form of tacos or a taco shell bowl and their final challenge is proving that they can be functioning member in the United States by selling sodas or something of the likes in a public space. There might have been physical challenges, but it was mostly the worms and selling stuff that I recall. [0] https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0421032/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0421032/
rollthehard6 8y ago
This is very much the premise of the Judge Dredd story 'Sob Story' about such a game show, in which the character Otto Sump first appears - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Sump https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Sump http://dreddalert.blogspot.com/2013/12/judge-dredd-sob-story-part-2.html http://dreddalert.blogspot.com/2013/12/judge-dredd-sob-story...
dgzl 8y ago
> On that note, I find it supremely fucked up that people have to turn to crowdfunding to get their unexpected healthcare costs covered by benevolent internet citizens. Keep in mind the percentage of folks who abuse this method of fundraising, instead of being truly needy.
- SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
  Citation?
  - dgzl 8y ago
    Personally I've seen plenty of crowdfunding initiatives that seem honest, but when looking closely you discover something with less integrity. As I imagined, this isn't unique to my own circle: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/arrests-gofundme-homeless-good-samaritan-scam-show-perils-crowdfunding-n936941 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/arrests-gofundme-homele...
jlebar 8y ago
You mean like this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_for_a_Day https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_for_a_Day

pault 8y ago

Jesus, this blew my mind. Not because the concept is outlandish, but because it wouldn't surprise me at all if it actually existed, and I think it would be immensely popular.

sharkweek 8y ago
Yes! It was supposed to be over the top satire with a comical tone, but then it just ended up depressing me because it started to feel far too realistic...
- bigiain 8y ago
  FWIW, it's not just you. And it's not new. "We are living in interesting times; in fact, they're so interesting that it is not currently possible to write near-future SF." -- Charlie Stross, Sep 2008 http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2008/09/avalanche.html http://www.antipope.org/charlie/blog-static/2008/09/avalanch...
  - zwkrt 8y ago
    Well Black mirror process this is untrue. I don't think I could be a writer for that show though, just watching it makes me sick.
- DanielBMarkham 8y ago
  It reminds me a bit "Running Man" by Stephen King. I think King probably had the better idea by having the audience be able to punish wrongdoers instead of helping the downtrodden. If you could add some good mob rule hurt-the-bad-guys to your mix, it could be a hit. And that's messed up.
  - pault 8y ago
    I think the reason a reality show for funding healthcare is so plausible is that it would be filling a gap left by a corrupt and failing system. I don't think anyone believes that there is a gap in the administration of law enforcement and punishment in the US.
    - jfk13 8y ago
      > I don't think anyone believes that there is a gap in the administration of law enforcement and punishment in the US. Take it up a level; I think quite a lot of people believe there's a serious gap in the oversight of law enforcement agencies in the US. Where's the public accountability? So - a reality show that follows police units, and lets the audience vote on which officers should be promoted, sacked, or jailed....
      - DanielBMarkham 8y ago
        I haven't seen an internet discussion yet where, whenever a gap is identified, somebody doesn't say something like "How can these people get away with this! There should be a law..." or something similar. So sure. Find the gap, tell the sad story, then follow enforcement folks as they find the people responsible -- with the audience voting for whomever that is and what the punishment should be. In the end the weak and vulnerable are rewarded, the evildoers punished. It's basically every Hollywood movie you've ever seen except the audience gets to vote on the outcome and real people are involved -- the ultimate in reality TV.
temp1928384 8y ago
There's one for student debt: https://www.trutv.com/shows/paid-off-with-michael-torpey/index.html https://www.trutv.com/shows/paid-off-with-michael-torpey/ind...

bitcoinmoney 8y ago

Sounds like a black mirror episode? Maybe submit it?

atm0sphere 8y ago
Yeah this could definitely be one..it's a lot like the bicycle episode though so not sure they would do it so direct. Maybe they would make one about the stories of individuals who start the crowdfunding campaigns and how they're interconnected, like shut up and dance.

newprint 8y ago

I will be down-voted to hell, but I have worked in health insurance company. Large insurance companies have doctors and layers that basically sit down and make decisions about how much they will pay (if ever) for treatment. Your scenario has real life basis.

Judgmentality 8y ago
> I have worked in health insurance company Well I'm convinced.
- dang 8y ago
  Please don't post unsubstantive comments here.
eru 8y ago
Isn't that how it has to work, if you want your insurance premiums to be finite?
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- HarryHirsch 8y ago
  In normal countries treatment guidelines are set by an independent committee of physiciant and ethicists. Britain has the NICE committee. Having the insurance company decide on what treatment will be paid only guarantees infinite payouts to the CEO.
  - maxxxxx 8y ago
    As far as I know NICE decisions are public whereas in the US you can’t know whether they will decline you or not. No transparency

ddebernardy 8y ago

Are you sure there aren't any TV shows that fit that dystopian game show description already? It seems like a no brainer winner for TV stations -- it's a glorified lottery mixed with lots of emotions, and bonus revenue if users vote by SMS. Surely some producer did that somewhere.

ihm 8y ago

Reminds me of this comic from a few weeks ago: http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/speciation http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/speciation

temp1928384 8y ago

There is actually a real game show on TruTV like this except for student debt https://www.trutv.com/shows/paid-off-with-michael-torpey/index.html https://www.trutv.com/shows/paid-off-with-michael-torpey/ind...

conanbatt 8y ago

I think the exact opposite. Without that venue to ask for money the answer is: "get your affairs in order". What is your answer to heavy health expenditures/

brodsky 8y ago
Universal healthcare. It works well in the majority of civilized world.
- conanbatt 8y ago
  In universal care you dont get access to 'clinical trials and research and things like that, where people need access to leading-edge potential treatments' You are also not eliminated the need to get funds, you are changing who you are asking them from. And let me tell you that government officials are seldom generous.
  - Judgmentality 8y ago
    So you believe the US healthcare system is better than, say, the United Kingdom?
    - conanbatt 8y ago
      I dont know the UK health intimately to compare confidently. I can tell you what it looks like with Argentina. that has universal care. Normally anyone with a dime goes private. Public is a lower-quality, cheaper service. That system is great for the poor, most expensive to middle class. I can also tell you what I think are reasons why US healthcare is so expensive, and they are not fixed by universal care programs.
      - arcticbull 8y ago
        No, they absolutely are fixed by universal healthcare, as they are everywhere else on earth.

throwaway5752 8y ago

I had seen The Running Man (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Running_Man_(1987_film) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Running_Man_(1987_film)) but didn't realize it was set in 2019! That silly trivia aside, it sounds like your would be a great short story in the rich tradition of dystopian art and literature.

marpstar 8y ago
I too immediately thought of The Running Man.

Antoninus 8y ago

check out https://watsi.org/ https://watsi.org/

mattkevan 8y ago
Came here to post this. Go Fund Me for health, best sob story gets the cash! YC funded too.

drfuchs 8y ago

Your idea of people competing for who has the biggest sob story is pretty much exactly the 1950’s TV show “Queen For A Day” (except that the studio audience did the voting).

sharkweek 8y ago
Incredible, turns out I'm WAY behind the times I guess! - I had never heard of this before. This from the Wikipedia article got a groan out of me: "Often the request was for medical care or therapeutic equipment to help a chronically ill child, or might be for a hearing aid, a new washing machine, or a refrigerator. Many women broke down sobbing as they described their plights." And then this: The show became popular enough that NBC increased its running time from 30 to 45 minutes to sell more commercials, at a then-premium rate of $4,000 per minute https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_for_a_Day https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_for_a_Day

badfrog 8y ago

The show Undercover Boss is kind of like that. Every episode some CEO realizes that all of their employees are underpaid, picks one with an especially sad story, and gives them some money to pay for their kid's surgery or college tuition.

jjeaff 8y ago
I thought the same thing. And they never seem to come to the realization that maybe a lot of their employees are underpaid. No, it's just the ones with stories that go best with violin music playing in the background. And one of the most delusional CEOs was the Hooters guy. He was talking about how he would be perfectly fine with his daughter working at Hooters. Then the manager where he was undercover was found to be a total pig. Making the waitresses compete for time off by eating canned beans with their hands behind their backs. He also talked about "inspecting" the "product" on a daily basis to make sure the customers stay happy. It was a gross display of abuse. Of course, he didn't even fire the manager later. Had this episode not been 10 years ago, I think #metoo would have had both the manager and the CEO fired within a week of the episode airing.
- hartator 8y ago
  The CEO was a the son of the founder, and was very shy and not very competent for sure. The manager deserved to be fired for sure and probably more.
- ses1984 8y ago
  I think you need to take what you see on reality TV with a grain of salt. That's the size of the moon.
  - jjeaff 8y ago
    So Hooters worked with the tv show to paint an extremely unflattering picture of their business? Or the show misled viewers and Hooters made no effort to correct the record?

TaylorAlexander 8y ago

One thing I’ve been studying a lot on my free time is the deep history of the concept of socialism. Not a particular implementation but the idea that it would be a good idea for us to intentionally build a world where everyone has certain basic needs met by society at large. In particular there is a rich history of “libertarian socialism” which advocates for direct social support of one another without a state. Typically it is advocated that this be done via organizational structures that do not require any individual to reach in to their pocket when another is in need, but by arranging society such that things like medical care are simply abundant, and only ever putting effort in to unnecessary developments (luxuries) once the basic needs of all people have been met. Obviously doing this is nontrivial and could only be achieved through a long process of repeated democratic decision making. The idea that we could care for one another without a state is both obvious and perplexing. People have always cared for themselves somewhere in the world even if some societies have been highly centralized. All this said, I have been fostering a deep appreciation for socialism as a utopian ideal to be discussed rather than either a bogey man or as something that requires the expansion of state power to realize. Many well meaning leftists have empowered authoritarians in their effort to force their desired outcomes. At the same time, the state as it stands today could be used to materially improve the lives of many impoverished people. I think the answer is to use the state as needed in the short term to help those in need, while recognizing the “technical debt” it creates by ultimately undermining freedom. Any work done with the state should be done cautiously and with the understanding that the state power will need in the long term to be eclipsed by power organized by the people. And we cannot simply advocate for state power - long term we must build these structures inside our society, not rely on state power to enforce our idea of a just society. But we must fight for socialism. I’ve enjoyed these two videos by Murray Bookchin recently. This critique of the left from 1986 is hugely applicable to today (he even mentions Bernie Sanders briefly): https://youtu.be/kBP_BMOblzc https://youtu.be/kBP_BMOblzc This video gets at the way our fantasies about technology can ignore our own desires as human beings, and presents an interesting contrast between then notion of futurism and utopianism: https://youtu.be/wS3-PffLKqM https://youtu.be/wS3-PffLKqM

hippich 8y ago
My current world view is that socialism implemented via central authority ruling over a very large group (i.e. socialistic government of USSR) is not working, because personal relationships connections are broken when helping each other is outsourced to some abstract entity. It is that entity being praised and hated when someone gets help or someone doesn't. The fact that it is neighbors, other region people, etc actually are involved in that is lost. No longer you can shame your neighbor for not helping a neighbor, or when they help - they get no word of appreciation. It is all abstracted away behind "They" - "why They did not fix roads?", "They healed my child from cancer", "They produced enormous GDP". This is the opposite of "my neighbor took my wife to the hospital when her waters broke and my car broke too", "our neighborhood resurfaced our road". In fact... The same thoughts probably apply to most modern and developed countries, as most of them has a significant amount of socialistic elements already...

lhorie 8y ago

Not exactly this, but in Brazil there's actually a TV show called "In the red", where the requirement for being a contestant is that they must have debt that they can't pay off. The winner gets to pay off their debt, losers go home empty handed.

ekianjo 8y ago

> On that note, I find it supremely fucked up that people have to turn to crowdfunding to get their unexpected healthcare costs covered by benevolent internet citizens. So who should pay for it? All taxpayers instead? All countries that have tried that are now in the red. The only good solution, I think, it to work to make healthcare a lot cheaper in the long run.

A2017U1 8y ago
The US is the only major developed country that doesn't have universal healthcare and they are still deep "in the red".
- mgkimsal 8y ago
  Exactly. Everyone's 'in the red'. What are people getting for that debt, and who benefits? Elite will always be 'elite', but most other countries people don't have to worry about considering bankruptcy if someone gets an illness requiring hospitalization. For some bizarre reason, we've enshrined "health care" as a "benefit" which is only morally accessible by "employed" people who have "good employers".
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  And we spend more per capita in public funds than any country providing public universal healthcare and, IIRC, about middle of the road in public healthcare spending as a share of GDP for countries providing universal healthcare, and then slightly more in private spending on top of the public spending. The US is literally paying, in public funds, for full universal healthcare (or more!), and paying more in private funds on top.
- ekianjo 8y ago
  At least the US is developing new drugs. About 99% of other countries produce none.
  - DFHippie 8y ago
    Citation? Also, it's usual when comparing countries to restrict one's comparison to economic peers. If Lesotho or Vatican City aren't funding drug development, this doesn't say a lot about the relative merit of the U.S. system.

dragonwriter 8y ago

Oddly, the only hard to believe thing I see about that scenario as an actual, real thing in the US’s very near future is the use of bracket style voting rather than whole-field voting where some number are eliminated each episode. That would violate a strong trend in the reality competition genre.

bostik 8y ago
Well, the entire genre is built around the concept of competitive elimination. Do it with access to healthcare and you sure turn the intensity up on elimination.
- dragonwriter 8y ago
  > Well, the entire genre is built around the concept of competitive elimination. But bracket-style voting prevents the drama of upsets where a candidate most people think is good-but-not-best gets eliminated while a candidate widely seen as poor but with a dedicated fan base who would easily get clobbered in a bracket (or sensibly aggregated ranked preference) system gets spared by the perversity of an inverse first-past-the-post system. Which drama is no doubt why inverse FPTP is so dominant in the genre, where audience voting is involved. > Do it with access to healthcare and you sure turn the intensity up on elimination. Oh, sure, I'm not arguing against that, just that brackets in particular would be a surprising choice.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago

The fact that it disturbs you so much is indicative of its value, I think. A lot of people were disturbed by the first Black Mirror episode, but I think it had less to do with the inherently disgusting conceit and more to do with how undeniably realistically events unfolded. It disturbed us because it shone a light on an aspect of our being that should disturb us, and we'd otherwise be content to ignore.

anonytrary 8y ago

Please finish that story! It sounds really good, reminds me of a Black Mirror episode.

leovander 8y ago

I saw a couple people link to the student debt stuff, which is way more relevant, but it reminded me of the Latin American community having Gana La Verde[0] since 2004. A cheap fear factor knock off, where the contestants compete for a green card, in the form representation from an immigration attorney. This usually has the contestants eating a platter of worms in the form of tacos or a taco shell bowl and their final challenge is proving that they can be functioning member in the United States by selling sodas or something of the likes in a public space. There might have been physical challenges, but it was mostly the worms and selling stuff that I recall. [0] https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0421032/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0421032/

rollthehard6 8y ago

This is very much the premise of the Judge Dredd story 'Sob Story' about such a game show, in which the character Otto Sump first appears - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Sump https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_Sump http://dreddalert.blogspot.com/2013/12/judge-dredd-sob-story-part-2.html http://dreddalert.blogspot.com/2013/12/judge-dredd-sob-story...

dgzl 8y ago

> On that note, I find it supremely fucked up that people have to turn to crowdfunding to get their unexpected healthcare costs covered by benevolent internet citizens. Keep in mind the percentage of folks who abuse this method of fundraising, instead of being truly needy.

SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
Citation?
- dgzl 8y ago
  Personally I've seen plenty of crowdfunding initiatives that seem honest, but when looking closely you discover something with less integrity. As I imagined, this isn't unique to my own circle: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/arrests-gofundme-homeless-good-samaritan-scam-show-perils-crowdfunding-n936941 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/arrests-gofundme-homele...

jlebar 8y ago

You mean like this? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_for_a_Day https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_for_a_Day