4 ms·

I wonder what would have happened if he had done a presentation in favor of the current favored political/pseudo religious orthodoxy with bad/inaccurate poorly

I wonder what would have happened if he had done a presentation in favor of the current favored political/pseudo religious orthodoxy with bad/inaccurate poorly done data. We will never know but, I'll bet you not much would have been said about it. I'm not in the field, but from everything I've read the rest of his work is some of the top in the field. So we un-person this individual and start to dis-credit his work, not based on its merit, but because of the creators "moral character". If someone dug back into Einstein and many other prominent scientists I'm sure that they could find plenty of issues with their moral character as well. For science to thrive it needs to be based on realism and facts. If someone presents inaccurate facts, they need to be refuted with with accurate ones and a lively debate needs to be possible to get to truth. The mobs condemning someone does not achieve that goal. This is also probably one of the reasons why scientific innovation is continuing to slow down.

OldFatCactus 8y ago
Lol Firstly, the guy isn't qualified to make such a sweeping statement about the opposite sex. So before we even step into the problems with why it's a dumb idea to say such things, lets just make it clear that he's a physicist and not an anthropologist, biologist, or sociologist. We definitely care about his moral character, but it's also just flat out incredibly naive to discredit women in his field when they've been playing catch-up for years due to cultural boundaries in the sciences. Any scientist who steps out of their lane to attack another gender or race deserves every bit of what they get. It's cowardly to use your position as a scientist in a completely unrelated field to justify your hatred for some other group of humans. Moreover, the guys history is terrible. He's got a chip on his shoulder about women and unethically chose to use his platform as a CERN scientist to exercise his anger.
- titanix2 8y ago
  It is comments like yours that is currently fuelling the ‘diversity’ meme pushback. You are denying someone the right to express facts just because of its gender and divergent political opinion. The guy is a physicist, he is way more qualified than any sociologist to deal with statistics. Your position is not only ridiculous virtue signaling but you are also creating a scary world where the messenger is more important than the message.
  - throwawaymath 8y ago
    First, the commenter you've replied to is not "denying someone the right to express facts"; they're responding to one person's opinion on the internet with their own opinion, just as you're doing. Second, if you think researchers in the "hard" sciences are qualified to make authoritative statements about things just because they grok statistics, you're either being willfully disningenuous or you fundamentally misunderstand the way domain knowledge and expertise work. Do you also suppose mathematicians can tell us about human psychology? I mean physics is just applied math, right?[1] Third, it's incredibly condescending to respond to someone's honest opinion by telling them it's "ridiculous virtue signaling." There's nothing else to really say here, it's a dismissive and unsubstantive way of criticizing someone else's point. Finally, your position is incoherent. You're talking about this person creating a "scary world" because they've expressed their opinion on the internet, but ironically you'd prefer they...didn't share their opinion? Do you suppose you're not also promoting a chilling effect here? _______________________ 1. https://xkcd.com/435/ https://xkcd.com/435/
  - joshuamorton 8y ago
    What specific facts did he express? He expressed many opinions but reading the article none of the controversy was about facts. He just claimed that his opinions about women being worse at physics research were facts and wrongly used the male variability hypothesis to try and justify that. Please don't fall for his claim that he was just presenting facts.
  - tempay 8y ago
    > The guy is a physicist, he is way more qualified than any sociologist to deal with statistics. As an experimental LHC physicist myself, his use of statistics is either naive (understandable, he’s a theorist) or negligent. He used his mathematical background to appear knowledgeable despite there being huge flaws in his “evidence”.
  - OldFatCactus 8y ago
    Wow a free speech soapbox. Guy got what he deserved, nothing else to it. Pretty funny you think that a physicist is somehow more qualified to explain deeply entrenched socioeconomic, cultural, and biological issues by being better at statistics?? Your position is just naive, wake up to reality. There are consequences to unethical behavior in the science community. Trying to disguise his motivations behind some thin veneer of research while having a record of misogyny should be clear to any unbiased reader.
- superkuh 8y ago
  It's obvious you have chosen not to inform yourself about this particular situation before commenting. You didn't even read the BBC article which had a big bold, "The decision follows an investigation into comments, first reported by BBC News, made by Prof Strumia at a Cern workshop on gender equality." The trigger for all this was his presentation at a workshop dedicated to having CERN physicists making statements about gender. Weather you agree with the controversial statements by Alessandro Strumia or not is not relevant to the parent comment being wrong.
  - OldFatCactus 8y ago
    yawn more redirection and shifting. He stepped out of his own area of expertise to push an agenda of misogyny. He acted unethically and must face the consequences that entails
    - superkuh 8y ago
      Being upset and wanting him punished is a fine and valid view. But maybe you should've actually known anything about the situation being discussed before saying patently false and irrelevant things (about this particular situation).
      - OldFatCactus 8y ago
        Only one us is clearly uninformed and out of their depth (hint:not me) have a good day buddy
      - dang 8y ago
        Please don't post in the flamewar style here. Instead, please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and post civilly and substantively, or not at all, regardless of how informed someone else is.
    - ThomPete 8y ago
      So saying that men are discriminated against is a misogynistic view?
- moomin 8y ago
  Well put. 100.
- travisoneill1 8y ago
  Would he be qualified to state that men and women are equally skilled at physics? Surely you would need the same credentials to determine that.
  - OldFatCactus 8y ago
    No and he would still be just as dumb for using weak science and fake research to justify the position that he is unqualified to assert. But obviously there wouldn't be as big of a reaction from the scientific community because the assertion wouldn't have been tinged with vitriolic bigotry. Any other weak what-ifs you want to discuss?
    - dang 8y ago
      Would you please stop posting to Hacker News in the flamewar style, regardless of how wrong others are or you feel they are? You did it here too: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19348928 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19348928. (Edit: and also here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19348978 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19348978. And here again: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19349065. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19349065.) We ban accounts that keep doing this. It's what we're trying to prevent from destroying this place, and we need your help along with everyone else's. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
      - OldFatCactus 8y ago
        I'm sorry. Won't happen again
        dang 8y ago
        Appreciated!
iguy 8y ago
It would be interesting to see the slides of the other presentations given at the meeting. I'm quite sure that most agreed with the orthodoxy. But did any of them present data? And if they did, how did they handle it? Compared (say) to how carefully they would handle data from their own field.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
YeGoblynQueenne 8y ago
>> So we un-person this individual and start to dis-credit his work, not based on its merit, but because of the creators "moral character". There was no "un-person" ing and no dis-crediting of his work. He was dismissed from his position at CERN. His work is not retracted and he will continue to publish.
pjc50 8y ago
> Einstein and many other prominent scientists I'm sure that they could find plenty of issues with their moral character as well. The question has been raised as to whether Einstein's wife Mileva Marić made an uncredited contribution to his work.
- mrjesus 8y ago
  "Ancient Alien Theorists Believe ... "
  - dang 8y ago
    Could you please not post unsubstantive comments, and especially not snark or flamebait, to Hacker News? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - mrjesus 8y ago
      How ironic. The whole "Einstein's Wife was the real genius" is an unsubstantiated claim. Everyone knows that the Ancient Aliens show is essentially begging the question. Much like like the OPs comment.
      - dang 8y ago
        Since you don't seem to want to use this site as intended, we've banned the account. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future.
        mrjesus 8y ago
        No your interpretation of the rules is just nonsense.
anigbrowl 8y ago
People sometimes make very elaborate and well-reasoned arguments that seem enormously persuasive but turn out to be based on dubious axiomatic assumptions. Your suggestion that science might be slowing down because we're not being nice enough to jerks seems pretty questionable. Surely, if this were true, the jerks could all just get together an out-science everyone else, Ayn Rand style, and everyone else would be forced to admit their fundamental superiority. We'll never know unless they try.

OldFatCactus 8y ago

Lol Firstly, the guy isn't qualified to make such a sweeping statement about the opposite sex. So before we even step into the problems with why it's a dumb idea to say such things, lets just make it clear that he's a physicist and not an anthropologist, biologist, or sociologist. We definitely care about his moral character, but it's also just flat out incredibly naive to discredit women in his field when they've been playing catch-up for years due to cultural boundaries in the sciences. Any scientist who steps out of their lane to attack another gender or race deserves every bit of what they get. It's cowardly to use your position as a scientist in a completely unrelated field to justify your hatred for some other group of humans. Moreover, the guys history is terrible. He's got a chip on his shoulder about women and unethically chose to use his platform as a CERN scientist to exercise his anger.

titanix2 8y ago
It is comments like yours that is currently fuelling the ‘diversity’ meme pushback. You are denying someone the right to express facts just because of its gender and divergent political opinion. The guy is a physicist, he is way more qualified than any sociologist to deal with statistics. Your position is not only ridiculous virtue signaling but you are also creating a scary world where the messenger is more important than the message.
- throwawaymath 8y ago
  First, the commenter you've replied to is not "denying someone the right to express facts"; they're responding to one person's opinion on the internet with their own opinion, just as you're doing. Second, if you think researchers in the "hard" sciences are qualified to make authoritative statements about things just because they grok statistics, you're either being willfully disningenuous or you fundamentally misunderstand the way domain knowledge and expertise work. Do you also suppose mathematicians can tell us about human psychology? I mean physics is just applied math, right?[1] Third, it's incredibly condescending to respond to someone's honest opinion by telling them it's "ridiculous virtue signaling." There's nothing else to really say here, it's a dismissive and unsubstantive way of criticizing someone else's point. Finally, your position is incoherent. You're talking about this person creating a "scary world" because they've expressed their opinion on the internet, but ironically you'd prefer they...didn't share their opinion? Do you suppose you're not also promoting a chilling effect here? _______________________ 1. https://xkcd.com/435/ https://xkcd.com/435/
- joshuamorton 8y ago
  What specific facts did he express? He expressed many opinions but reading the article none of the controversy was about facts. He just claimed that his opinions about women being worse at physics research were facts and wrongly used the male variability hypothesis to try and justify that. Please don't fall for his claim that he was just presenting facts.
- tempay 8y ago
  > The guy is a physicist, he is way more qualified than any sociologist to deal with statistics. As an experimental LHC physicist myself, his use of statistics is either naive (understandable, he’s a theorist) or negligent. He used his mathematical background to appear knowledgeable despite there being huge flaws in his “evidence”.
- OldFatCactus 8y ago
  Wow a free speech soapbox. Guy got what he deserved, nothing else to it. Pretty funny you think that a physicist is somehow more qualified to explain deeply entrenched socioeconomic, cultural, and biological issues by being better at statistics?? Your position is just naive, wake up to reality. There are consequences to unethical behavior in the science community. Trying to disguise his motivations behind some thin veneer of research while having a record of misogyny should be clear to any unbiased reader.
superkuh 8y ago
It's obvious you have chosen not to inform yourself about this particular situation before commenting. You didn't even read the BBC article which had a big bold, "The decision follows an investigation into comments, first reported by BBC News, made by Prof Strumia at a Cern workshop on gender equality." The trigger for all this was his presentation at a workshop dedicated to having CERN physicists making statements about gender. Weather you agree with the controversial statements by Alessandro Strumia or not is not relevant to the parent comment being wrong.
- OldFatCactus 8y ago
  yawn more redirection and shifting. He stepped out of his own area of expertise to push an agenda of misogyny. He acted unethically and must face the consequences that entails
  - superkuh 8y ago
    Being upset and wanting him punished is a fine and valid view. But maybe you should've actually known anything about the situation being discussed before saying patently false and irrelevant things (about this particular situation).
    - OldFatCactus 8y ago
      Only one us is clearly uninformed and out of their depth (hint:not me) have a good day buddy
    - dang 8y ago
      Please don't post in the flamewar style here. Instead, please review https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and post civilly and substantively, or not at all, regardless of how informed someone else is.
  - ThomPete 8y ago
    So saying that men are discriminated against is a misogynistic view?
moomin 8y ago
Well put. 100.
travisoneill1 8y ago
Would he be qualified to state that men and women are equally skilled at physics? Surely you would need the same credentials to determine that.
- OldFatCactus 8y ago
  No and he would still be just as dumb for using weak science and fake research to justify the position that he is unqualified to assert. But obviously there wouldn't be as big of a reaction from the scientific community because the assertion wouldn't have been tinged with vitriolic bigotry. Any other weak what-ifs you want to discuss?
  - dang 8y ago
    Would you please stop posting to Hacker News in the flamewar style, regardless of how wrong others are or you feel they are? You did it here too: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19348928 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19348928. (Edit: and also here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19348978 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19348978. And here again: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19349065. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19349065.) We ban accounts that keep doing this. It's what we're trying to prevent from destroying this place, and we need your help along with everyone else's. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - OldFatCactus 8y ago
      I'm sorry. Won't happen again
      - dang 8y ago
        Appreciated!

iguy 8y ago

It would be interesting to see the slides of the other presentations given at the meeting. I'm quite sure that most agreed with the orthodoxy. But did any of them present data? And if they did, how did they handle it? Compared (say) to how carefully they would handle data from their own field.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

YeGoblynQueenne 8y ago

>> So we un-person this individual and start to dis-credit his work, not based on its merit, but because of the creators "moral character". There was no "un-person" ing and no dis-crediting of his work. He was dismissed from his position at CERN. His work is not retracted and he will continue to publish.

pjc50 8y ago

> Einstein and many other prominent scientists I'm sure that they could find plenty of issues with their moral character as well. The question has been raised as to whether Einstein's wife Mileva Marić made an uncredited contribution to his work.

mrjesus 8y ago
"Ancient Alien Theorists Believe ... "
- dang 8y ago
  Could you please not post unsubstantive comments, and especially not snark or flamebait, to Hacker News? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - mrjesus 8y ago
    How ironic. The whole "Einstein's Wife was the real genius" is an unsubstantiated claim. Everyone knows that the Ancient Aliens show is essentially begging the question. Much like like the OPs comment.
    - dang 8y ago
      Since you don't seem to want to use this site as intended, we've banned the account. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future.
      - mrjesus 8y ago
        No your interpretation of the rules is just nonsense.

anigbrowl 8y ago

People sometimes make very elaborate and well-reasoned arguments that seem enormously persuasive but turn out to be based on dubious axiomatic assumptions. Your suggestion that science might be slowing down because we're not being nice enough to jerks seems pretty questionable. Surely, if this were true, the jerks could all just get together an out-science everyone else, Ayn Rand style, and everyone else would be forced to admit their fundamental superiority. We'll never know unless they try.