6 ms·

I've been reading recently about a structural/sociocultural/technological phenomenon that's actually holding women back in a field where women tend to dominate

by jmole 8y ago

I've been reading recently about a structural/sociocultural/technological phenomenon that's actually holding women back in a field where women tend to dominate in representation at the academic level, but are regularly outcompeted by men at the professional level. Piano playing. It all comes down to the shape of the instrument, and hand-span, which is unquestionably (and uncontroversially) larger in men than in women: http://www.smallpianokeyboards.org/uploads/3/4/1/6/34165129/right-hand-span-results-with-dots-dec-2016_1_orig.jpg http://www.smallpianokeyboards.org/uploads/3/4/1/6/34165129/... (from http://www.smallpianokeyboards.org/hand-span-data.html http://www.smallpianokeyboards.org/hand-span-data.html) The interesting thing is that there is a solution to the problem, the 7/8 piano, which has an octave spacing of 5.5" as opposed to the 6.5" on a typical piano. The thing is, no one really takes it seriously outside of a few universities and a dedicated group that's trying to advance this cause. Even women who learned to play long ago grouse that "I can play a regular piano, you just have to use different technique!", but won't admit to themselves or to others that the technique they're required to use is a detriment to playing the instrument with ease. The other issue is that these pianos are hard to come by, since almost every manufacturer makes pianos of the same keyboard size, and pianists are one of the few musicians expected to play on whatever instrument they're given. The other interesting thing is that the majority of men would actually play better on these pianos, because they would suddenly have "rachmaninoff hands", but the legacy of having hundreds of thousands of existing pianos just sitting around prevents progress from being made toward this goal. P.S. if anyone wants to make a startup company for building 7/8 digital pianos (of which there are none currently on the market), hit me up.

thaumasiotes 8y ago
> The other issue is that these pianos are hard to come by, since almost every manufacturer makes pianos of the same keyboard size, and pianists are one of the few musicians expected to play on whatever instrument they're given. This is a good point, but it seems to be determined by the fundamentals of pianos. Moving a piano is difficult enough that I wouldn't expect this to change. We could all switch to keyboards...
- jmole 8y ago
  pianos have had different sized keys throughout history, the recent standardization came about in the early/mid 20th century, and the size that we see today was actually driven mostly by piano companies competing to see who could produce the piano with the loudest, fullest sound. what you may not know about pianos is that the "action", the keys-and-hammers bit, is a totally separate piece that can be removed in about 3 minutes. Most of the 7/8 keyboards manufactured today are actually just smaller actions that can be swapped into normal sized grands.
- saghm 8y ago
  I think that's probably why GP is interested in making 7/8 digital pianos (as seen in the "PS"), which are much more portable
danbolt 8y ago
This is really interesting. I had no idea about 7/8 pianos but I’m certainly going to Google then up now.
totalBeginner 8y ago
So interesting, thanks for sharing! I have been learning to play piano later in life after growing up playing violin and viola. Although virtually all professional adult violinists play a "full size" violin, smaller sizes exist for children, and I remember wondering as a child whether smaller pianos existed as well. Now, as an adult, I wish there were larger keyboards---the best-practices techniques that my teacher with average hands shows me are physically not possible for my larger hands. So I can easily imagine the inverse would be true. Violas are an interesting case where, in contrast to the violin, many "full" sizes exist, anywhere from 15 inches to 17 inches to accommodate arm length. I would be curious to see a comparison of whether female violists are better able than female violinists to compete with their male counterparts given the size range of professional violas in contrast to the standardized violin (although I suspect the sample size of violists could be too small).
iguy 8y ago
Thanks that's interesting. I'm astonished there are no 7/8 digital keyboards. Also, is there an explanation for "dominate in representation at the academic level"? Does it need one?
- jmole 8y ago
  From the website I linked: "Christopher Donison (1998) has commented on the relatively small proportion of female piano competition winners at a senior level, given that they generally greatly outnumber male students in universities."
maxxxxx 8y ago
I can relate to that. I am male but I have pretty small hands. When I tried to learn piano and guitar I had a lot of trouble reaching keys that were really easy for others in my group. I remember wondering how I would do if I didn't have trouble already with the most basic chords.
- jmole 8y ago
  Guitar is definitely similar. Look at most world famous guitarists & you'll see big hands. John Mayer, Jimmy hendrix, Steve Ray Vaughn, etc
paganel 8y ago
This could go the other way, like you might be seen as saying that women don't have hand-spans as big as men, meaning that they're not as good as men when it comes to their physical capabilities and as such "providing" them with smaller pianos might be looked at as "demeaning" towards said women (you're thinking about them as not being as good as men are). Gender politics can be fun like that.
- mamon 8y ago
  So producing shoes or coat's in women sizes is also "demeaning" towards women? I can't imagine why producing smaller pianos would be any different.
  - gambiting 8y ago
    Because someone would say that it shows that a woman cannot play a proper piano like a man can - she has to be provided with a smaller(and therefore obviously inferior) one.
    - iguy 8y ago
      This was certainly why no teenage boy wanted to be seen playing a 3/4 size guitar! But one would hope that adults could behave better.
    - scott_s 8y ago
      But it's important to keep in mind no one is saying that. It's dangerous to get wrapped up in what people might say because that relies on your imagination, not reality.
  - petre 8y ago
    At least some companies (Meral - cycles Cyfac) are producing bicycles in women's sizes which are not just their male counterparts painted in pink and turqoise.
- natrik 8y ago
  This isn't an issue in the WNBA and Women's basketball in general where the ball is smaller than the men's ball.
jancsika 8y ago
That would be an enormous waste of institutional knowledge and technology (in the form of extant pianos and pianists). If you're going to make such a drastic change to the piano, at least cut the keyboard into two halves at middle c, then invert both halves. Now when the right hand starts at what used to be middle c and plays a chromatic scale upward, it's going from high pitches to low pitches. E.g., middle c is now the highest sounding c on the instrument. (For purposes of this thought experiment, suppose there are two middle c's. I'm describing the middle c to the left below...) Mirroring that, when the left hand starts at what used to be its middle c and plays a chromatic scale downward in the lower half, it's going from low pitches to higher pitches. That is, what used to be middle c is the lowest sounding pitch. Benefits: * when the right hand plays a melody the strongest fingers-- thumb, index, and middle-- are most likely to be playing. The ring finger and pinky-- the weakest fingers-- would be relegated to inner voices most of the time. * the bass notes-- the most important notes of the accompaniment-- are played with the strongest fingers of the left hand. Again, that's thumb, index, and middle. Ancillary notes, and inner voices of chords, are played with the weaker fingers-- ring and pinky (and possibly middle if thumb is playing the bass note). That way you vastly improve the ergonomics of the instrument. Otherwise you're just normalizing a big, expensive instrument so that it is guaranteed to be equally uncomfortable for all sizes of hand.
- cat199 8y ago
  > That would be an enormous waste of institutional knowledge and technology (in the form of extant pianos and pianists). taking something built using relatively coarse tolerances by today's standards and scaling it down by 1/8" is a 'enormous waste'? if this is the case, human manufacturing technology is in serious trouble. i don't think anyone is arguing to simply toss out the existing pianos, but to standardize on the smaller one and gradually replace them as time goes on..
  - jancsika 8y ago
    What's the plan for this gradually phase-out? Especially considering that even the heterogenous timbres of pianos of the 1800s are now largely gone with everything standardizing on the Steinway timbre? How do you make it so that a generation of pianist mustn't learn to master two different sizes of piano?

by jmole 8y ago

thaumasiotes 8y ago

> The other issue is that these pianos are hard to come by, since almost every manufacturer makes pianos of the same keyboard size, and pianists are one of the few musicians expected to play on whatever instrument they're given. This is a good point, but it seems to be determined by the fundamentals of pianos. Moving a piano is difficult enough that I wouldn't expect this to change. We could all switch to keyboards...

jmole 8y ago
pianos have had different sized keys throughout history, the recent standardization came about in the early/mid 20th century, and the size that we see today was actually driven mostly by piano companies competing to see who could produce the piano with the loudest, fullest sound. what you may not know about pianos is that the "action", the keys-and-hammers bit, is a totally separate piece that can be removed in about 3 minutes. Most of the 7/8 keyboards manufactured today are actually just smaller actions that can be swapped into normal sized grands.
saghm 8y ago
I think that's probably why GP is interested in making 7/8 digital pianos (as seen in the "PS"), which are much more portable

danbolt 8y ago

This is really interesting. I had no idea about 7/8 pianos but I’m certainly going to Google then up now.

totalBeginner 8y ago

So interesting, thanks for sharing! I have been learning to play piano later in life after growing up playing violin and viola. Although virtually all professional adult violinists play a "full size" violin, smaller sizes exist for children, and I remember wondering as a child whether smaller pianos existed as well. Now, as an adult, I wish there were larger keyboards---the best-practices techniques that my teacher with average hands shows me are physically not possible for my larger hands. So I can easily imagine the inverse would be true. Violas are an interesting case where, in contrast to the violin, many "full" sizes exist, anywhere from 15 inches to 17 inches to accommodate arm length. I would be curious to see a comparison of whether female violists are better able than female violinists to compete with their male counterparts given the size range of professional violas in contrast to the standardized violin (although I suspect the sample size of violists could be too small).

iguy 8y ago

Thanks that's interesting. I'm astonished there are no 7/8 digital keyboards. Also, is there an explanation for "dominate in representation at the academic level"? Does it need one?

jmole 8y ago
From the website I linked: "Christopher Donison (1998) has commented on the relatively small proportion of female piano competition winners at a senior level, given that they generally greatly outnumber male students in universities."

maxxxxx 8y ago

I can relate to that. I am male but I have pretty small hands. When I tried to learn piano and guitar I had a lot of trouble reaching keys that were really easy for others in my group. I remember wondering how I would do if I didn't have trouble already with the most basic chords.

jmole 8y ago
Guitar is definitely similar. Look at most world famous guitarists & you'll see big hands. John Mayer, Jimmy hendrix, Steve Ray Vaughn, etc

paganel 8y ago

This could go the other way, like you might be seen as saying that women don't have hand-spans as big as men, meaning that they're not as good as men when it comes to their physical capabilities and as such "providing" them with smaller pianos might be looked at as "demeaning" towards said women (you're thinking about them as not being as good as men are). Gender politics can be fun like that.

mamon 8y ago
So producing shoes or coat's in women sizes is also "demeaning" towards women? I can't imagine why producing smaller pianos would be any different.
- gambiting 8y ago
  Because someone would say that it shows that a woman cannot play a proper piano like a man can - she has to be provided with a smaller(and therefore obviously inferior) one.
  - iguy 8y ago
    This was certainly why no teenage boy wanted to be seen playing a 3/4 size guitar! But one would hope that adults could behave better.
  - scott_s 8y ago
    But it's important to keep in mind no one is saying that. It's dangerous to get wrapped up in what people might say because that relies on your imagination, not reality.
- petre 8y ago
  At least some companies (Meral - cycles Cyfac) are producing bicycles in women's sizes which are not just their male counterparts painted in pink and turqoise.
natrik 8y ago
This isn't an issue in the WNBA and Women's basketball in general where the ball is smaller than the men's ball.

jancsika 8y ago

That would be an enormous waste of institutional knowledge and technology (in the form of extant pianos and pianists). If you're going to make such a drastic change to the piano, at least cut the keyboard into two halves at middle c, then invert both halves. Now when the right hand starts at what used to be middle c and plays a chromatic scale upward, it's going from high pitches to low pitches. E.g., middle c is now the highest sounding c on the instrument. (For purposes of this thought experiment, suppose there are two middle c's. I'm describing the middle c to the left below...) Mirroring that, when the left hand starts at what used to be its middle c and plays a chromatic scale downward in the lower half, it's going from low pitches to higher pitches. That is, what used to be middle c is the lowest sounding pitch. Benefits: * when the right hand plays a melody the strongest fingers-- thumb, index, and middle-- are most likely to be playing. The ring finger and pinky-- the weakest fingers-- would be relegated to inner voices most of the time. * the bass notes-- the most important notes of the accompaniment-- are played with the strongest fingers of the left hand. Again, that's thumb, index, and middle. Ancillary notes, and inner voices of chords, are played with the weaker fingers-- ring and pinky (and possibly middle if thumb is playing the bass note). That way you vastly improve the ergonomics of the instrument. Otherwise you're just normalizing a big, expensive instrument so that it is guaranteed to be equally uncomfortable for all sizes of hand.

cat199 8y ago
> That would be an enormous waste of institutional knowledge and technology (in the form of extant pianos and pianists). taking something built using relatively coarse tolerances by today's standards and scaling it down by 1/8" is a 'enormous waste'? if this is the case, human manufacturing technology is in serious trouble. i don't think anyone is arguing to simply toss out the existing pianos, but to standardize on the smaller one and gradually replace them as time goes on..
- jancsika 8y ago
  What's the plan for this gradually phase-out? Especially considering that even the heterogenous timbres of pianos of the 1800s are now largely gone with everything standardizing on the Steinway timbre? How do you make it so that a generation of pianist mustn't learn to master two different sizes of piano?