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Click the link below and have a look at the cartoon in question. Though I can realize how some might be offended, it's not an offensive cartoon. Or rather - t

Click the link below and have a look at the cartoon in question. Though I can realize how some might be offended, it's not an offensive cartoon. Or rather - the 'offensiveness of the cartoon' is only a function of one's sensitivity to intersectional issues. So any cartoon/animation that is 'against' the intersectional view will be regarded as 'offensive'. The very fact that this cartoon could be regarded as 'offensive' is ironically at the heart of this debate. We all have a right to be offended, but we also have a right to express ourselves within reason. The cartoon I guess was a needless poke in the eye but it's really not that bad.

tptacek 8y ago
Your rebuttal is tautological; you're essentially saying "this presentation was only offensive to people who were offended by it". Well, sure. A gauge for how offended people were by it: CERN immediately apologized and ultimately fired Strumia for it. I don't know how "offensive" I find it, and I'm not a physicist, but I try to put myself in the shoes of a physicist attending a workshop at CERN when someone gets up on stage with a presentation titled "Experimental test of a new global discrete symmetry" and it turns out to be a lecture about "Cultural Marxism", and I assume I'd have been pissed too.
- sonnyblarney 8y ago
  "A gauge for how offended people were by it: CERN immediately apologized and ultimately fired Strumia for it." That's a measure of how afraid CERN is of the reaction to it. It's a matter of PR and has nothing to do with Science. Anyone who's offended by some data in slides might consider not being a scientist. Or rather just easily debunking it if that's the case. The data in the presentation is uncomfortable, and maybe it's all utterly misrepresented, but these things have a place in polite society. Finally, here's this juicy tidbit: he's making a case that men are discriminated against in Science. He's given many examples. Then - he's fired right away for highlighting the fact that he's ostensibly being discriminated against? I wonder if that makes a sneaky, upside down lawsuit. I don't think CERN is the place for any of this, but there should be a place for it somewhere reasonable where people can talk about reality without losing their jobs. I don't think we need raging bigots, but we need contrarians.
  - tptacek 8y ago
    Maybe there should be those places, but Strumia is losing this particular role because he chose as his venue a stunt talk at a CERN workshop. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
    - ThomPete 8y ago
      What is your base for that conclusion?
      - tptacek 8y ago
        The CERN apology, the CERN press release, the CERN email on JusticeForStrumia.com, the ParticlesForJustice page, the title of Strumia's presentation, and the slide in which Strumia complains that he wasn't hired for a role one of the women organizers of the workshop was hired for. Hope that helps!
        ThomPete 8y ago
        CERNs apology is just a consequence of that presentation not an actual argument against it.
        tptacek 8y ago
        I'm not at all sure what your argument is here. Strumia clearly did mislead CERN and the workshop organizers, pretty clearly gave a presentation to troll the workshop, and clearly launched an attack on another scientist (present at the workshop) during his presentation. Is your argument that someone should have been able to give a contrarian presentation about gender disparities in physics at this workshop? I agree with you. But that's not what Strumia did. He tried to pwn the libs, and ended up depantsing himself.
        ThomPete 8y ago
        Which illustrates the fundamental issue here. This was not something that came from within, this was forced from the outside namely the media, in this case, BBC which made it politically problematic for CERN. If a woman or man had launched an attack on the problems of being a woman in a male-dominated field nothing would have happened, in fact, he or she would have been applauded for speaking truth to power and celebrated for their courage they certainly wouldn't have ended up being called sexist or wouldn't have their ties cut. You might as well chose to read him in the same manner, he certainly did think of himself as someone who spoke truth to power. And it certainly wasn't something that was a bigger problem than someone could say. "What an idiot" and then move on. But no, this had to be a question of sexism even though he was talking about discrimination against men. This has James Damore deja vu all over it. The code of Conduct hail mary is an excuse which is why their apology is not an argument it highlights the very problem.
- Chris_Chambers 8y ago
  I’m sure he was aware of the reaction he would get, including the firing. Why do you suppose he did it? He could just as easily have shared his views anonymously online to blow off steam and face no consequences. Perhaps he was sickened by CERN’s creepy satanic opening ceremony (and who knows what else has occurred behind closed doors over the years since then), and this spicy de facto resignation was his little way of pushing back against something he felt like he was aiding and abetting against his will in exchange for a paycheck.

tptacek 8y ago

Your rebuttal is tautological; you're essentially saying "this presentation was only offensive to people who were offended by it". Well, sure. A gauge for how offended people were by it: CERN immediately apologized and ultimately fired Strumia for it. I don't know how "offensive" I find it, and I'm not a physicist, but I try to put myself in the shoes of a physicist attending a workshop at CERN when someone gets up on stage with a presentation titled "Experimental test of a new global discrete symmetry" and it turns out to be a lecture about "Cultural Marxism", and I assume I'd have been pissed too.

sonnyblarney 8y ago
"A gauge for how offended people were by it: CERN immediately apologized and ultimately fired Strumia for it." That's a measure of how afraid CERN is of the reaction to it. It's a matter of PR and has nothing to do with Science. Anyone who's offended by some data in slides might consider not being a scientist. Or rather just easily debunking it if that's the case. The data in the presentation is uncomfortable, and maybe it's all utterly misrepresented, but these things have a place in polite society. Finally, here's this juicy tidbit: he's making a case that men are discriminated against in Science. He's given many examples. Then - he's fired right away for highlighting the fact that he's ostensibly being discriminated against? I wonder if that makes a sneaky, upside down lawsuit. I don't think CERN is the place for any of this, but there should be a place for it somewhere reasonable where people can talk about reality without losing their jobs. I don't think we need raging bigots, but we need contrarians.
- tptacek 8y ago
  Maybe there should be those places, but Strumia is losing this particular role because he chose as his venue a stunt talk at a CERN workshop. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
  - ThomPete 8y ago
    What is your base for that conclusion?
    - tptacek 8y ago
      The CERN apology, the CERN press release, the CERN email on JusticeForStrumia.com, the ParticlesForJustice page, the title of Strumia's presentation, and the slide in which Strumia complains that he wasn't hired for a role one of the women organizers of the workshop was hired for. Hope that helps!
      - ThomPete 8y ago
        CERNs apology is just a consequence of that presentation not an actual argument against it.
        tptacek 8y ago
        I'm not at all sure what your argument is here. Strumia clearly did mislead CERN and the workshop organizers, pretty clearly gave a presentation to troll the workshop, and clearly launched an attack on another scientist (present at the workshop) during his presentation. Is your argument that someone should have been able to give a contrarian presentation about gender disparities in physics at this workshop? I agree with you. But that's not what Strumia did. He tried to pwn the libs, and ended up depantsing himself.
        ThomPete 8y ago
        Which illustrates the fundamental issue here. This was not something that came from within, this was forced from the outside namely the media, in this case, BBC which made it politically problematic for CERN. If a woman or man had launched an attack on the problems of being a woman in a male-dominated field nothing would have happened, in fact, he or she would have been applauded for speaking truth to power and celebrated for their courage they certainly wouldn't have ended up being called sexist or wouldn't have their ties cut. You might as well chose to read him in the same manner, he certainly did think of himself as someone who spoke truth to power. And it certainly wasn't something that was a bigger problem than someone could say. "What an idiot" and then move on. But no, this had to be a question of sexism even though he was talking about discrimination against men. This has James Damore deja vu all over it. The code of Conduct hail mary is an excuse which is why their apology is not an argument it highlights the very problem.
Chris_Chambers 8y ago
I’m sure he was aware of the reaction he would get, including the firing. Why do you suppose he did it? He could just as easily have shared his views anonymously online to blow off steam and face no consequences. Perhaps he was sickened by CERN’s creepy satanic opening ceremony (and who knows what else has occurred behind closed doors over the years since then), and this spicy de facto resignation was his little way of pushing back against something he felt like he was aiding and abetting against his will in exchange for a paycheck.