3 ms·

Replace “passport” by “driving license” and things are almost equivalent: a piece of paper that pins you down a particular plot of land.

by TomVDB 8y ago

erentz 8y ago
You’re not getting the point. The USA is a single country. All of its citizens are to be treated equally. And all of its foreign affairs are handled by the one federal government. The EU is a very complicated collection of many individual countries that all have their own citizens, and all represent themselves individually in foreign affairs except where it’s convenient to represent themselves as a group. Free movement in the EU doesn’t even extend to all member countries. There is no reasonable way Japan could refuse entry to a US citizens who are suspected of residing in a state without effectively denying all US citizens because there is only one type of US citizen. (Which they are free to do, but obviously won’t.) On the other hand residents of the EU have it in the reverse. There are 28 (?) different types of citizens, each with different passports, each from countries with different immigration departments, different foreign affairs ministers, etc. It’s asking a lot for other countries to just blanket accept all of these types of citizens from very different countries, and more to just accept them from any new country that may be added. Turkey is a dictatorship and came damn close to being in the EU. It’s entirely feasible some member country like Hungry (to pick on one) begins to behave badly or becomes a dictatorship or starts persecuting people and the expectation is still we must accept their passports the same as a French one? Absurd. Of course not. The EU is a long way from being a single country.
- benj111 8y ago
  "The USA is a single country. All of its citizens are to be treated equally" Yes because the US has decided they should be, the EU has decided they want their citizens treating the same also. I understand your point that you can't differentiate Americans by passport, unlike Europeans, but that's a subtly different argument. "Turkey is a dictatorship and came damn close to being in the EU" If by damn close you mean informal talks. Theres a list of things nations need to sign up to, be become EU members. Not being a dictatorship is probably in there somewhere.
- lispm 8y ago
  There are a lot of misconceptions about the EU, the European Union, in your post. > The EU is a very complicated collection of many individual countries that all have their own citizens https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_of_the_European_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_of_the_European_Un... As a German, I'm a citizen of Germany and a citizen of the EU. > Free movement in the EU doesn’t even extend to all member countries Sure it does. It does even extend to a few countries outside the EU. > different types of citizens They are all EU citizens. All of them have the right of free movement within the EU. Many of them are also in the Schengen area (which has 400 Million people), which got rid of internal border controls and which has a common Visa policy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_policy_of_the_Schengen_Area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_policy_of_the_Schengen_Ar... > Turkey is a dictatorship and came damn close to being in the EU. It never came close to being in the EU. There have been talks since 2005 with not much progress. Turkey would need to fully comply with EU laws and regulations. That's a process which could need another decade. Then the EU countries would need to vote in favor. Every single one of them. That's not clear how that would be achievable. If Turkey would be a dictatorship, then there would be zero chance of Turkey becoming a member of the EU. > Hungry Hungary?
- TomVDB 8y ago
  Just having a passport for a particular country is not the single deciding factor to determine entry. There are already other requirements in many countries that have nothing to do with citizenship. (Think Yellow fever vaccincation in some Asian countries.) There is absolutely nothing that would prevent Japan or the EU to impose additional differentiating factors to US citizens is deciding entry to their country. “For safety reason, we require all visitors to have a valid driving license. We only recognize licenses from those states that have less than x driving related deaths per 100,000.” Absurd from a policy point of view? Of course. Impossible from a legal point of view? Absolutely not.
- johannes1234321 8y ago
  > You’re not getting the point. Mind that there is also this point: The individual EU-Schengen country doesn't give out visa for their own country. U.S. citizens can only get a Schengen Visa. Thus if the U.S. says "EU Member X requires Visa" country X can't enforce Visa itself the only way X can enforce Visa is by the EU enforcing Visa. Also the EU is a solidarity agreement - EU member states pledged to stand in for each other at such situations. If EU doesn't uphold it's not fulfilling the promise it gave those countries, when they gave up some souvereignity.
- sly010 8y ago
  Hungry?

Replace “passport” by “driving license” and things are almost equivalent: a piece of paper that pins you down a particular plot of land.

by TomVDB 8y ago

Replace “passport” by “driving license” and things are almost equivalent: a piece of paper that pins you down a particular plot of land.

erentz 8y ago

You’re not getting the point. The USA is a single country. All of its citizens are to be treated equally. And all of its foreign affairs are handled by the one federal government. The EU is a very complicated collection of many individual countries that all have their own citizens, and all represent themselves individually in foreign affairs except where it’s convenient to represent themselves as a group. Free movement in the EU doesn’t even extend to all member countries. There is no reasonable way Japan could refuse entry to a US citizens who are suspected of residing in a state without effectively denying all US citizens because there is only one type of US citizen. (Which they are free to do, but obviously won’t.) On the other hand residents of the EU have it in the reverse. There are 28 (?) different types of citizens, each with different passports, each from countries with different immigration departments, different foreign affairs ministers, etc. It’s asking a lot for other countries to just blanket accept all of these types of citizens from very different countries, and more to just accept them from any new country that may be added. Turkey is a dictatorship and came damn close to being in the EU. It’s entirely feasible some member country like Hungry (to pick on one) begins to behave badly or becomes a dictatorship or starts persecuting people and the expectation is still we must accept their passports the same as a French one? Absurd. Of course not. The EU is a long way from being a single country.

benj111 8y ago
"The USA is a single country. All of its citizens are to be treated equally" Yes because the US has decided they should be, the EU has decided they want their citizens treating the same also. I understand your point that you can't differentiate Americans by passport, unlike Europeans, but that's a subtly different argument. "Turkey is a dictatorship and came damn close to being in the EU" If by damn close you mean informal talks. Theres a list of things nations need to sign up to, be become EU members. Not being a dictatorship is probably in there somewhere.
lispm 8y ago
There are a lot of misconceptions about the EU, the European Union, in your post. > The EU is a very complicated collection of many individual countries that all have their own citizens https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_of_the_European_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizenship_of_the_European_Un... As a German, I'm a citizen of Germany and a citizen of the EU. > Free movement in the EU doesn’t even extend to all member countries Sure it does. It does even extend to a few countries outside the EU. > different types of citizens They are all EU citizens. All of them have the right of free movement within the EU. Many of them are also in the Schengen area (which has 400 Million people), which got rid of internal border controls and which has a common Visa policy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_policy_of_the_Schengen_Area https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visa_policy_of_the_Schengen_Ar... > Turkey is a dictatorship and came damn close to being in the EU. It never came close to being in the EU. There have been talks since 2005 with not much progress. Turkey would need to fully comply with EU laws and regulations. That's a process which could need another decade. Then the EU countries would need to vote in favor. Every single one of them. That's not clear how that would be achievable. If Turkey would be a dictatorship, then there would be zero chance of Turkey becoming a member of the EU. > Hungry Hungary?
TomVDB 8y ago
Just having a passport for a particular country is not the single deciding factor to determine entry. There are already other requirements in many countries that have nothing to do with citizenship. (Think Yellow fever vaccincation in some Asian countries.) There is absolutely nothing that would prevent Japan or the EU to impose additional differentiating factors to US citizens is deciding entry to their country. “For safety reason, we require all visitors to have a valid driving license. We only recognize licenses from those states that have less than x driving related deaths per 100,000.” Absurd from a policy point of view? Of course. Impossible from a legal point of view? Absolutely not.
johannes1234321 8y ago
> You’re not getting the point. Mind that there is also this point: The individual EU-Schengen country doesn't give out visa for their own country. U.S. citizens can only get a Schengen Visa. Thus if the U.S. says "EU Member X requires Visa" country X can't enforce Visa itself the only way X can enforce Visa is by the EU enforcing Visa. Also the EU is a solidarity agreement - EU member states pledged to stand in for each other at such situations. If EU doesn't uphold it's not fulfilling the promise it gave those countries, when they gave up some souvereignity.
sly010 8y ago
Hungry?