26 ms·

The elephant in the room is that between the EU and US, there should be no visa at all, ideally some kind of free move zone like the EU is itself (and befriende

by geff82 8y ago

The elephant in the room is that between the EU and US, there should be no visa at all, ideally some kind of free move zone like the EU is itself (and befriended states like Switzerland)

fiblye 8y ago
>there should be no visa at all And why is that?
- ajmurmann 8y ago
  We need people to travel and get different perspectives more and not less. I too often see arguments in political discourse that something could never work, yet I've been to many countries where these things are normal. For example, I want all US citizens to experience a great pic transportation system so that we can elevate the discussion in the US about it. Likewise I want everyone to experience a Japanese city, so that we can have a better discussion about the forever in the US and Japan's zoning system. I want Germans to see that the sky doesn't fall off you get rid off the insane system that requires permission from existing, local stores before you can open your own or just even see how convenient a countdown on a traffic light can be. We have so much to learn from each other! In fact I wish we could make it mandatory for everyone to have to live a year in a foreign country. It would make the world a much better place.
  - fiblye 8y ago
    Keep in mind that not everyone wants others to experience their country. If everybody went to Bhutan, it’d lose everything that makes it unique. If a country imposed a visa policy on other countries, most of the time, they do it based on some degree of reason (although some are definitely petty bullshit reasons). And visas aren’t even really a hindrance for Americans going to Europe or most countries. They’ll be stamped off pretty much guaranteed, unless you’ve got major criminal convictions or reason to be suspicious (like planning a 6 month vacation with <$1000 in the bank). The real problem is paying for flight tickets, hotels, and actually getting vacation time.
    - sgc 8y ago
      I think the point was that work should be reciprocally permitted. That is probably the most basic difference between visiting somewhere and living there.
  - Youden 8y ago
    > In fact I wish we could make it mandatory for everyone to have to live a year in a foreign country. I get where you're coming from and agree that would be great for America but I really don't want mass migration of Americans to Europe. The number we have is enough. The culture is poisonous and already destroying America (see homelessness, healthcare, government shutdowns, racial conflicts, political divisions), we don't need it spreading here any more than it already is. If Americans showed any inclination of integrating this might be a different story but I'm surrounded by expats who despite residing in European countries for years haven't learned the language, put their kids in English-speaking schools and otherwise gone about their American lifestyles in European countries without any apparent consideration for the locals (and often go on to complain about how "unwelcoming" the countries they live in are). Don't get me wrong, I don't hate Americans, I don't think they're horrible people and the country certainly has huge achievements. However, the idea of mass (albeit temporary) migration to/from Europe to give "different perspectives" terrifies me, as it feels like it'll largely be in a single direction, at least when it comes to culture.
    - ajmurmann 8y ago
      Unfortunately I think you make a good point. I vividly remember how during my most recent Japan visit I'd feel frequently embarrassed for other westerners who were either unwilling out unable to talk quietly in public and especially on trains. It almost physically hurt. Meanwhile I know Asians who've lived on the US since many years and still haven't figured out that it's bad behavior her to make loud chewing noises while eating. Maybe the majority of people just aren't interested in learning alternative ways to live. It's honestly really hard for me to wrap my head around this, since hardly anything is more interesting to me than learning about other cultures, their different norms etc. It not only opens your eyes to how some things could be better but you also gain a fresh perspective on your own culture and yourself.

by geff82 8y ago

The elephant in the room is that between the EU and US, there should be no visa at all, ideally some kind of free move zone like the EU is itself (and befriended states like Switzerland)

fiblye 8y ago

>there should be no visa at all And why is that?

ajmurmann 8y ago
We need people to travel and get different perspectives more and not less. I too often see arguments in political discourse that something could never work, yet I've been to many countries where these things are normal. For example, I want all US citizens to experience a great pic transportation system so that we can elevate the discussion in the US about it. Likewise I want everyone to experience a Japanese city, so that we can have a better discussion about the forever in the US and Japan's zoning system. I want Germans to see that the sky doesn't fall off you get rid off the insane system that requires permission from existing, local stores before you can open your own or just even see how convenient a countdown on a traffic light can be. We have so much to learn from each other! In fact I wish we could make it mandatory for everyone to have to live a year in a foreign country. It would make the world a much better place.
- fiblye 8y ago
  Keep in mind that not everyone wants others to experience their country. If everybody went to Bhutan, it’d lose everything that makes it unique. If a country imposed a visa policy on other countries, most of the time, they do it based on some degree of reason (although some are definitely petty bullshit reasons). And visas aren’t even really a hindrance for Americans going to Europe or most countries. They’ll be stamped off pretty much guaranteed, unless you’ve got major criminal convictions or reason to be suspicious (like planning a 6 month vacation with <$1000 in the bank). The real problem is paying for flight tickets, hotels, and actually getting vacation time.
  - sgc 8y ago
    I think the point was that work should be reciprocally permitted. That is probably the most basic difference between visiting somewhere and living there.
- Youden 8y ago
  > In fact I wish we could make it mandatory for everyone to have to live a year in a foreign country. I get where you're coming from and agree that would be great for America but I really don't want mass migration of Americans to Europe. The number we have is enough. The culture is poisonous and already destroying America (see homelessness, healthcare, government shutdowns, racial conflicts, political divisions), we don't need it spreading here any more than it already is. If Americans showed any inclination of integrating this might be a different story but I'm surrounded by expats who despite residing in European countries for years haven't learned the language, put their kids in English-speaking schools and otherwise gone about their American lifestyles in European countries without any apparent consideration for the locals (and often go on to complain about how "unwelcoming" the countries they live in are). Don't get me wrong, I don't hate Americans, I don't think they're horrible people and the country certainly has huge achievements. However, the idea of mass (albeit temporary) migration to/from Europe to give "different perspectives" terrifies me, as it feels like it'll largely be in a single direction, at least when it comes to culture.
  - ajmurmann 8y ago
    Unfortunately I think you make a good point. I vividly remember how during my most recent Japan visit I'd feel frequently embarrassed for other westerners who were either unwilling out unable to talk quietly in public and especially on trains. It almost physically hurt. Meanwhile I know Asians who've lived on the US since many years and still haven't figured out that it's bad behavior her to make loud chewing noises while eating. Maybe the majority of people just aren't interested in learning alternative ways to live. It's honestly really hard for me to wrap my head around this, since hardly anything is more interesting to me than learning about other cultures, their different norms etc. It not only opens your eyes to how some things could be better but you also gain a fresh perspective on your own culture and yourself.