4 ms·

>It was no big deal—grandparents swooped in to keep things on the rails (something that is true for people of all income levels). I'm not sure if you even real

by ses1984 8y ago

>It was no big deal—grandparents swooped in to keep things on the rails (something that is true for people of all income levels). I'm not sure if you even realize the value of the support systems that were intact for these families. Not everyone has that. It seems like you entirely missed the point of post above. What if you had an unplanned pregnancy with a one night stand? What if you live hundreds of miles from your parents? What if your parents aren't with you any more? The point of counseling would be to get people to understand the risks. Maybe you're in a place where an unplanned pregnancy would be no big deal. Lucky you. You might be in a place where an unplanned pregnancy would turn your life upside down. In that case you better take much more precaution, like using condoms AND birth control.

rayiner 8y ago
> What if you had an unplanned pregnancy with a one night stand? What if you live hundreds of miles from your parents? What if your parents aren't with you any more? My point is not that everyone has that support system, but that it doesn't take much support to make having kids workable, and the government can gap-fill for people who don't have intact support structures. Almost 40% of births in the U.S. each year are the result of unplanned pregnancies, despite intensive sex education in schools. Nobody is like "oh shit, I didn't know that having a kid could be really disruptive to my life. If only I had received counseling!" People keep having kids because people want to have kids. (Indeed, in the U.S., people are having fewer kids (about 2 on average) than they'd ideally want (3, according to polls)). Telling people they shouldn't have kids--which would end up as telling poor people and minorities that they can't afford kids and shouldn't have them--isn't a replacement for offering support such as childcare.
- umanwizard 8y ago
  Having grandparents able to help out is a GIGANTIC advantage. Why are you saying it "doesn't take much" ?
- ses1984 8y ago
  >My point is not that everyone has that support system, but that it doesn't take much I vehemently disagree with this. Not sure how we could continue to discuss if we can't see eye to eye on this basic point. >Telling people they shouldn't have kids--which would end up as telling poor people and minorities that they can't afford kids--isn't a replacement for offering support such as childcare. Who said we should be so prescriptive? I think just raising awareness would be enough to move the needle. You can do that AND offer support.
  - zanny 8y ago
    This mindset is crucial. It doesn't make much to meet the bare minimum legal requirements of parenting. It takes a ton to produce thriving minds capable of excelling in the encroaching post-labor reality. So many people treat parenthood as a checkmark on the mandatory itinerary of life and once they check it off they just "eat the cost" and pay to have the kids taken care of. Both those parents, and the poor parents who cannot afford the state / capitalist solutions to child rearing, are being negligent. Kids need familial bonds and constant social contact with their kin group to thrive. You don't drop them at random daycares every day for eight hours starting at six months and produce healthy progeny. Raising kids is at least a part time job for both parents. Not in monetary expenses, in time. Putting in less than that at any point before pubescence can be catastrophic to the growth of the child. But as a society, because that cost is for most people untenable, they still want to "fulfill their obligation" to past generations, and have kids they cannot adequately allocate time for and end up producing descendants who suffer throughout life for it. It is an absolute real conversation that needs to be had, that the true cost of parenthood is astronomical in todays society, and that almost nobody is in a financial position to fulfill that obligation such that they aren't risking harm to the child. We haven't had an adequate availability of time on the part of both parents to raise their children since 80% of the population were agrarian farmers* and we have seen rampant expanse of mental illness and maladjustment to society for it ever since. * of course said farmers were very rarely good parents. Using your kids as hard labor from a young age, using violence as a coercion tactic against them, treating them like property and an investment rather than people, not feeding their curiosity or inquisitiveness out of your own ignorance and simple mindedness taught by your parents. It was a real mess that compulsory public education in part did a lot to stop, but that doesn't preclude the availability of parents and family being so critical to the well-being of young minds while also being absent from contemporary society for the vast majority of children.
- jelliclesfarm 8y ago
  I cannot even tell you how much I disagree with you! The original article states that people are sending their sick kids to school because they can’t take care of their sick children. In countries like USA, many are immigrants and don’t have that familial support system. Due to healthcare costs and cost of living, both parents(never mind single parents) have to work and they work longer. Also..maybe 50 years ago, grandmothers would baby sit their children’s children but today grandparents are still working and when they retire, they want to have a break after decades of employment..to expect them to take up child rearing again is incredibly selfish.

rayiner 8y ago

> What if you had an unplanned pregnancy with a one night stand? What if you live hundreds of miles from your parents? What if your parents aren't with you any more? My point is not that everyone has that support system, but that it doesn't take much support to make having kids workable, and the government can gap-fill for people who don't have intact support structures. Almost 40% of births in the U.S. each year are the result of unplanned pregnancies, despite intensive sex education in schools. Nobody is like "oh shit, I didn't know that having a kid could be really disruptive to my life. If only I had received counseling!" People keep having kids because people want to have kids. (Indeed, in the U.S., people are having fewer kids (about 2 on average) than they'd ideally want (3, according to polls)). Telling people they shouldn't have kids--which would end up as telling poor people and minorities that they can't afford kids and shouldn't have them--isn't a replacement for offering support such as childcare.

umanwizard 8y ago
Having grandparents able to help out is a GIGANTIC advantage. Why are you saying it "doesn't take much" ?
ses1984 8y ago
>My point is not that everyone has that support system, but that it doesn't take much I vehemently disagree with this. Not sure how we could continue to discuss if we can't see eye to eye on this basic point. >Telling people they shouldn't have kids--which would end up as telling poor people and minorities that they can't afford kids--isn't a replacement for offering support such as childcare. Who said we should be so prescriptive? I think just raising awareness would be enough to move the needle. You can do that AND offer support.
- zanny 8y ago
  This mindset is crucial. It doesn't make much to meet the bare minimum legal requirements of parenting. It takes a ton to produce thriving minds capable of excelling in the encroaching post-labor reality. So many people treat parenthood as a checkmark on the mandatory itinerary of life and once they check it off they just "eat the cost" and pay to have the kids taken care of. Both those parents, and the poor parents who cannot afford the state / capitalist solutions to child rearing, are being negligent. Kids need familial bonds and constant social contact with their kin group to thrive. You don't drop them at random daycares every day for eight hours starting at six months and produce healthy progeny. Raising kids is at least a part time job for both parents. Not in monetary expenses, in time. Putting in less than that at any point before pubescence can be catastrophic to the growth of the child. But as a society, because that cost is for most people untenable, they still want to "fulfill their obligation" to past generations, and have kids they cannot adequately allocate time for and end up producing descendants who suffer throughout life for it. It is an absolute real conversation that needs to be had, that the true cost of parenthood is astronomical in todays society, and that almost nobody is in a financial position to fulfill that obligation such that they aren't risking harm to the child. We haven't had an adequate availability of time on the part of both parents to raise their children since 80% of the population were agrarian farmers* and we have seen rampant expanse of mental illness and maladjustment to society for it ever since. * of course said farmers were very rarely good parents. Using your kids as hard labor from a young age, using violence as a coercion tactic against them, treating them like property and an investment rather than people, not feeding their curiosity or inquisitiveness out of your own ignorance and simple mindedness taught by your parents. It was a real mess that compulsory public education in part did a lot to stop, but that doesn't preclude the availability of parents and family being so critical to the well-being of young minds while also being absent from contemporary society for the vast majority of children.
jelliclesfarm 8y ago
I cannot even tell you how much I disagree with you! The original article states that people are sending their sick kids to school because they can’t take care of their sick children. In countries like USA, many are immigrants and don’t have that familial support system. Due to healthcare costs and cost of living, both parents(never mind single parents) have to work and they work longer. Also..maybe 50 years ago, grandmothers would baby sit their children’s children but today grandparents are still working and when they retire, they want to have a break after decades of employment..to expect them to take up child rearing again is incredibly selfish.