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It would be completely ridiculous to try to remove political discussion from HN. Politics is involved with _everything_ the world has to offer; and more specif

by lwhi 16y ago

It would be completely ridiculous to try to remove political discussion from HN. Politics is involved with _everything_ the world has to offer; and more specifically, politics is fundamentally bound to technology. The fact that people like making 'cool stuff', will always have a flip-side. We need to be able to talk about the way that technology is utilised and that (necessarily) involves political discussion. Without this kind of discussion, people involved in the tech industry are destined to become unthinking drones .. consideration of ethics and politics is essential if technology stands any chance of making the world a better place.

Charuru 16y ago
Any way you slice it, discussion on ways to bypass scanners is not that relevant to technology. More importantly, there are a large number of sites where 'politics' can be discussed, don't infest a hacker site with it.
- lwhi 16y ago
  It's entirely relevant to technology. Whether you like it or not, technology doesn't happen in a vacuum. Technology relates to people and society in a big way. When usage of a device (like the millimetre wave scanner) is misguided and unappreciated by a large number of people, why on earth _shouldn't_ it be discussed on a tech forum? It's not enough to take the view that 'I just make the stuff .. other people can choose whether it's a good idea'. We all have a responsibility to consider whether what we create is going to result in anything 'good' and what 'good' actually means.
  - Pahalial 16y ago
    That's bypassing the point. Discussed once, absolutely; discussed in hundreds of posts, maybe not so much. http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Anews.ycombinator.com+intitle%3ATSA http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Anews.ycombinator.com+i...
  - Charuru 16y ago
    What you're talking about are your opinions and your personal philosophical beliefs of only tangential relevance to technology. Discussing them is not what I signed up here for. You wanna talk about it? I have a reddit account, you know?
    - lwhi 16y ago
      What you're talking about are your opinions and your personal philosophical beliefs [..] discussing them is exactly what I signed up here for. .. or are you claiming you only express facts ;)
- stcredzero 16y ago
  Did you read the grandparent comment? The point made was that politics suffuses everything. You can't exclude politics. Robert Heinlein once commented that politics is like peristalsis -- the result isn't very pretty, but it's necessary for life and you ignore it at your peril!
  - Charuru 16y ago
    I didn't say you should ignore politics. I read real news, just like other people. I took offense at the parent comment's implication that just because I oppose talking about the TSA on HN that I'm somehow ignorant or amoral. Give me a fucking break, it's about the signal to noise ratio, It's about me being able to regard HN as my 'industry journal' vs random water cooler chat.
amelim 16y ago
I think this type of discussion is much better suited for personal environments. Strike this discussion up at the next HN Meetup in your area, or with your co-workers when you go out for drinks after work. Anonymous discussion of such topics on a news collection website will neither change minds nor produce any constructive debate.
- lwhi 16y ago
  Why? Why shouldn't we all be willing to change our minds? Why shouldn't we be willing to debate and explore a subject in depth? Your point of view completely baffles me.
  - amelim 16y ago
    Perhaps you are misunderstanding my post, but I never said that people shouldn't change their minds or debate a subject (in fact I vehemently believe that they should). It's simply this forum is not a constructive place for that type of discussion. Debating online, through anonymous accounts, provides little context towards other people's experiences. Additionally, you lose the nuances of language and body language, which often leads to misunderstandings. Personally, I don't feel it's an effective medium for debate. But clearly, you disagree with me.
    - lwhi 16y ago
      Additionally, you lose the nuances of language and body language, which often leads to misunderstandings. I think I understand what you're saying, but I don't think that's reason to _not_ try to have decent discussions about politics when it relates to technology. HN already has systems in place which make people pause before replying consecutively, which goes a long way to discouraging flame wars. In any case, politics doesn't need to be about enforcing a point of view - it's about exploring options. Net neutrality is almost completely political - should discussion about this be killed? Copyright legislation is almost completely political - should this be killed too?? Limiting discussion to things which feel 'safe' isn't constructive imo.
  - davidw 16y ago
mechanical_fish 16y ago
Politics is involved with _everything_ the world has to offer I completely agree, but it is considered impolite on HN to call attention to the fact. Just as it is considered impolite to call too much attention to politics in many parts of real life. And it is true, of course, that the impossibility of discussing certain issues on HN means that HN is a very poor substitute for the rest of your life. But that's true of any group. You need other communities, other activities, other obsessions than just one.
- lwhi 16y ago
  Impolite? ... really?!? Well, I suppose that's one explanation for why so many people in society could be described as apathetic lame ducks :) Perhaps a lot of people would like to question what goes on in the world, but don't wish to offend. [..] and more specifically, politics is fundamentally bound to technology. The fact is, technology is closely linked to politics. If you want to convince me that political discussion is out, I think I'd need more than guidelines re. etiquette to stop me ;)
  - jdp23 16y ago
    especially given pg's stated position that YC founders enjoy breaking rules (just not the ones that matter)
davidw 16y ago
> Politics is involved with _everything_ the world has to offer There's a difference between something that happens to be politics and touches very directly on subjects germane to this site, and inviting in politics articles of every shape and form. > Without this kind of discussion, people involved in the tech industry are destined to become unthinking drones Uh, no we aren't. Our lives do not revolve around this site and many of us manage to think about politics, economics, history, bicycle racing, and many other fascinating topics without discussing them here.
JoachimSchipper 16y ago
"How to disclose security vulnerabilities" might be appopriate for HN, but "some technology somewhere is being misused" isn't. Just because something is worth discussing doesn't mean it's appropriate here: I get my politics news from newspapers and my tech news from HN, and I like it that way.

by lwhi 16y ago

Charuru 16y ago

Any way you slice it, discussion on ways to bypass scanners is not that relevant to technology. More importantly, there are a large number of sites where 'politics' can be discussed, don't infest a hacker site with it.

lwhi 16y ago
It's entirely relevant to technology. Whether you like it or not, technology doesn't happen in a vacuum. Technology relates to people and society in a big way. When usage of a device (like the millimetre wave scanner) is misguided and unappreciated by a large number of people, why on earth _shouldn't_ it be discussed on a tech forum? It's not enough to take the view that 'I just make the stuff .. other people can choose whether it's a good idea'. We all have a responsibility to consider whether what we create is going to result in anything 'good' and what 'good' actually means.
- Pahalial 16y ago
  That's bypassing the point. Discussed once, absolutely; discussed in hundreds of posts, maybe not so much. http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Anews.ycombinator.com+intitle%3ATSA http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Anews.ycombinator.com+i...
- Charuru 16y ago
  What you're talking about are your opinions and your personal philosophical beliefs of only tangential relevance to technology. Discussing them is not what I signed up here for. You wanna talk about it? I have a reddit account, you know?
  - lwhi 16y ago
    What you're talking about are your opinions and your personal philosophical beliefs [..] discussing them is exactly what I signed up here for. .. or are you claiming you only express facts ;)
stcredzero 16y ago
Did you read the grandparent comment? The point made was that politics suffuses everything. You can't exclude politics. Robert Heinlein once commented that politics is like peristalsis -- the result isn't very pretty, but it's necessary for life and you ignore it at your peril!
- Charuru 16y ago
  I didn't say you should ignore politics. I read real news, just like other people. I took offense at the parent comment's implication that just because I oppose talking about the TSA on HN that I'm somehow ignorant or amoral. Give me a fucking break, it's about the signal to noise ratio, It's about me being able to regard HN as my 'industry journal' vs random water cooler chat.

amelim 16y ago

I think this type of discussion is much better suited for personal environments. Strike this discussion up at the next HN Meetup in your area, or with your co-workers when you go out for drinks after work. Anonymous discussion of such topics on a news collection website will neither change minds nor produce any constructive debate.

lwhi 16y ago
Why? Why shouldn't we all be willing to change our minds? Why shouldn't we be willing to debate and explore a subject in depth? Your point of view completely baffles me.
- amelim 16y ago
  Perhaps you are misunderstanding my post, but I never said that people shouldn't change their minds or debate a subject (in fact I vehemently believe that they should). It's simply this forum is not a constructive place for that type of discussion. Debating online, through anonymous accounts, provides little context towards other people's experiences. Additionally, you lose the nuances of language and body language, which often leads to misunderstandings. Personally, I don't feel it's an effective medium for debate. But clearly, you disagree with me.
  - lwhi 16y ago
    Additionally, you lose the nuances of language and body language, which often leads to misunderstandings. I think I understand what you're saying, but I don't think that's reason to _not_ try to have decent discussions about politics when it relates to technology. HN already has systems in place which make people pause before replying consecutively, which goes a long way to discouraging flame wars. In any case, politics doesn't need to be about enforcing a point of view - it's about exploring options. Net neutrality is almost completely political - should discussion about this be killed? Copyright legislation is almost completely political - should this be killed too?? Limiting discussion to things which feel 'safe' isn't constructive imo.
- davidw 16y ago

mechanical_fish 16y ago

Politics is involved with _everything_ the world has to offer I completely agree, but it is considered impolite on HN to call attention to the fact. Just as it is considered impolite to call too much attention to politics in many parts of real life. And it is true, of course, that the impossibility of discussing certain issues on HN means that HN is a very poor substitute for the rest of your life. But that's true of any group. You need other communities, other activities, other obsessions than just one.

lwhi 16y ago
Impolite? ... really?!? Well, I suppose that's one explanation for why so many people in society could be described as apathetic lame ducks :) Perhaps a lot of people would like to question what goes on in the world, but don't wish to offend. [..] and more specifically, politics is fundamentally bound to technology. The fact is, technology is closely linked to politics. If you want to convince me that political discussion is out, I think I'd need more than guidelines re. etiquette to stop me ;)
- jdp23 16y ago
  especially given pg's stated position that YC founders enjoy breaking rules (just not the ones that matter)

davidw 16y ago

> Politics is involved with _everything_ the world has to offer There's a difference between something that happens to be politics and touches very directly on subjects germane to this site, and inviting in politics articles of every shape and form. > Without this kind of discussion, people involved in the tech industry are destined to become unthinking drones Uh, no we aren't. Our lives do not revolve around this site and many of us manage to think about politics, economics, history, bicycle racing, and many other fascinating topics without discussing them here.

JoachimSchipper 16y ago

"How to disclose security vulnerabilities" might be appopriate for HN, but "some technology somewhere is being misused" isn't. Just because something is worth discussing doesn't mean it's appropriate here: I get my politics news from newspapers and my tech news from HN, and I like it that way.