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> Technology is not a goal. Nobody cares about which programming language you are using, nobody cares about which frameworks your team has chosen, nobody cares

> Technology is not a goal. Nobody cares about which programming language you are using, nobody cares about which frameworks your team has chosen, nobody cares about how elegant your data structures are and nobody cares about how good is your code. 100% that! > JS Fatigue happens when people use tools they don't need to solve problems they don't have. Many JavaScript developers are scared (by scared I am paralyzed in the face of death catatonic scared to the most possible irrational extreme) to write original code when often times original code takes less time and is a better fit to the immediate problem. This is called Invented Here Syndrome and is internally coddled when developers are appeased by writing configurations opposed to logic. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invented_here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invented_here It is so bad that at my current employer somebody recommended I use a different editor to write code, because it had this kiss ass extension called Atom Beautify. They were pretty forceful in their recommendation. I am a collaborator on that project and wrote one of its beautifiers. People are scared to death to write software themselves or use any software from people they know, but so long as they don't I wrote any of it its great (to them). > Even though the ECMA spec is becoming more and more solid these days, we still need Babel. I have always believed this is one of those not real problems the paper talks about immediately prior. Writing cross browser JS is like writing CSS. Everybody bitches about it but once you've nailed it you got it with ease forever. > My first advice for anyone suffering from JS Fatigue... Learn the standards. Code to the standards first. Then optimize your workflow to become more efficient. This is the very essence solving for premature optimization.

s3m4j 8y ago
It's also the same logic you can observe everywhere in business : pushing down responsabilities, outsource resources, leave a paper trail etc.
karanlyons 8y ago
> Many JavaScript developers are scared (by scared I am paralyzed in the face of death catatonic scared to the most possible irrational extreme) to write original code when often times original code takes less time and is a better fit to the immediate problem. This is called Invented Here Syndrome and is internally coddled when developers are appeased by writing configurations opposed to logic. I think this is true of a much larger category of developers than JS developers (though one could argue that defining yourself by a specific language is indicative of belonging to this category), that is developers who can't do more than plumbing, i.e. developers who can't actually solve problems properly on their own. The flighty attraction to the new shiny is somewhat driven by a lack of understanding of how either the new or the old shiny actually work. If you understand the job you're setting out to do you're in a much better position to decide upon tools, frameworks, what to do in house, etc. If you don't you're stuck gluing black boxes together, because any actual code you write will be far worse. JS being an "accessible" language and a mandatory part of practically all software companies with a front facing website makes this the most apparent in both the constant flow of new tools and libraries and the view that the new tools and libraries must be adopted. But any novice developer can fall prey to this behavior regardless of their choice of language, JS just makes it easier.
- ownagefool 8y ago
  It depends. Lets step away from the front end for a second, on the server side you use a reasonble MVC framework. * You get to stop worrying about how to structure your code. * The guidence should use Depency Injection, allowing you to easily Unit Test. * You get a templating language that helps with XSS. * You get a validation language that helps with input. * You get session handling that projects you against jacking, etc. * You get an ORM that makes SQL easy and projects you against SQL Injection. * You get Security Headers, etc. Typically, the junior developer needs the above help, the mid level developer thinks they can do it all himself, and the senior doesn't think it's worth reinveting the wheel. JavaScript has arguably been the wild west, and if you're creating a SPA, a lot of the above is no longer your consideration, but it alos doesn't neccessairly mean we should all write everything from scratch. Now there are counter arguments where you can DIY your own framework using community modules, and this is how the Golang community seems to work, but this seems better when you have something like PHPs PSRs ala https://www.php-fig.org/ https://www.php-fig.org/ defining how this should fit together.
  - karanlyons 8y ago
    I'm not arguing that one should write things from scratch. I think I may have poorly articulated my position, but that you and I actually share the same opinion here. I don't think you should reinvent the wheel unless for some reason all available wheels are insufficient for your case. But knowing this requires that you have some understanding of how wheels work, how to compare them, and how to hew your own out of raw materials if the need arises. I would say JS is partially a wild west due to title inflation and the relative numbers of lesser experienced developers in the space relative to, say, your pool of Erlang engineers.
    - aidos 8y ago
      Yup. And it’s hard to even evaluate these things sometimes (and I have 20 years experience to guide me now). We’re doing some frontend stuff at the moment and we needed a nice way to wire up keyboard shortcuts. After a week of false starts with other people’s libraries we wrote our own in a day that a) works how we need and b) is so small that anyone can understand it.
justatdotin 8y ago
> nobody cares about how good is your code the person who has to maintain it?
- sbhn 8y ago
  Yeah, somebody has to work super hard, to make somebody elses job super easy. Write it yourself, or maybe you cant, and blaming someone elses code is a distraction to take the attention away from yourself.
  - afarrell 8y ago
    It is a poor carpenter who blames his tools. Why? Because a skilled carpenter has money to buy the best tools. Tools matter. Developer experience matters. Cognitive cost matters when tools are used by non-infinite brains. If you don’t believe that, then build a product with a confusing UI and try selling it. New != good though.
    - noir_lord 8y ago
      It's rare that new ever equals good, even the best stuff takes time to mature into good. It starts with interesting and then moves on to good later I think.
    - rangibaby 8y ago
      A skilled carpenter has the tools that are necessary for the job, their price doesn’t matter. In a couple of industries I have worked in there is a tier of expensive tools that are basically ways of extracting free money from professionals (when someone else is paying) and rich amateurs who want to feel superior to their friends
      - afarrell 8y ago
        > A skilled carpenter has the tools that are necessary for the job, their price doesn’t matter Very true. A skilled carpenter is discerning about his tools and know where it matters to spend more money.

s3m4j 8y ago

It's also the same logic you can observe everywhere in business : pushing down responsabilities, outsource resources, leave a paper trail etc.

karanlyons 8y ago

> Many JavaScript developers are scared (by scared I am paralyzed in the face of death catatonic scared to the most possible irrational extreme) to write original code when often times original code takes less time and is a better fit to the immediate problem. This is called Invented Here Syndrome and is internally coddled when developers are appeased by writing configurations opposed to logic. I think this is true of a much larger category of developers than JS developers (though one could argue that defining yourself by a specific language is indicative of belonging to this category), that is developers who can't do more than plumbing, i.e. developers who can't actually solve problems properly on their own. The flighty attraction to the new shiny is somewhat driven by a lack of understanding of how either the new or the old shiny actually work. If you understand the job you're setting out to do you're in a much better position to decide upon tools, frameworks, what to do in house, etc. If you don't you're stuck gluing black boxes together, because any actual code you write will be far worse. JS being an "accessible" language and a mandatory part of practically all software companies with a front facing website makes this the most apparent in both the constant flow of new tools and libraries and the view that the new tools and libraries must be adopted. But any novice developer can fall prey to this behavior regardless of their choice of language, JS just makes it easier.

ownagefool 8y ago
It depends. Lets step away from the front end for a second, on the server side you use a reasonble MVC framework. * You get to stop worrying about how to structure your code. * The guidence should use Depency Injection, allowing you to easily Unit Test. * You get a templating language that helps with XSS. * You get a validation language that helps with input. * You get session handling that projects you against jacking, etc. * You get an ORM that makes SQL easy and projects you against SQL Injection. * You get Security Headers, etc. Typically, the junior developer needs the above help, the mid level developer thinks they can do it all himself, and the senior doesn't think it's worth reinveting the wheel. JavaScript has arguably been the wild west, and if you're creating a SPA, a lot of the above is no longer your consideration, but it alos doesn't neccessairly mean we should all write everything from scratch. Now there are counter arguments where you can DIY your own framework using community modules, and this is how the Golang community seems to work, but this seems better when you have something like PHPs PSRs ala https://www.php-fig.org/ https://www.php-fig.org/ defining how this should fit together.
- karanlyons 8y ago
  I'm not arguing that one should write things from scratch. I think I may have poorly articulated my position, but that you and I actually share the same opinion here. I don't think you should reinvent the wheel unless for some reason all available wheels are insufficient for your case. But knowing this requires that you have some understanding of how wheels work, how to compare them, and how to hew your own out of raw materials if the need arises. I would say JS is partially a wild west due to title inflation and the relative numbers of lesser experienced developers in the space relative to, say, your pool of Erlang engineers.
  - aidos 8y ago
    Yup. And it’s hard to even evaluate these things sometimes (and I have 20 years experience to guide me now). We’re doing some frontend stuff at the moment and we needed a nice way to wire up keyboard shortcuts. After a week of false starts with other people’s libraries we wrote our own in a day that a) works how we need and b) is so small that anyone can understand it.

justatdotin 8y ago

> nobody cares about how good is your code the person who has to maintain it?

sbhn 8y ago
Yeah, somebody has to work super hard, to make somebody elses job super easy. Write it yourself, or maybe you cant, and blaming someone elses code is a distraction to take the attention away from yourself.
- afarrell 8y ago
  It is a poor carpenter who blames his tools. Why? Because a skilled carpenter has money to buy the best tools. Tools matter. Developer experience matters. Cognitive cost matters when tools are used by non-infinite brains. If you don’t believe that, then build a product with a confusing UI and try selling it. New != good though.
  - noir_lord 8y ago
    It's rare that new ever equals good, even the best stuff takes time to mature into good. It starts with interesting and then moves on to good later I think.
  - rangibaby 8y ago
    A skilled carpenter has the tools that are necessary for the job, their price doesn’t matter. In a couple of industries I have worked in there is a tier of expensive tools that are basically ways of extracting free money from professionals (when someone else is paying) and rich amateurs who want to feel superior to their friends
    - afarrell 8y ago
      > A skilled carpenter has the tools that are necessary for the job, their price doesn’t matter Very true. A skilled carpenter is discerning about his tools and know where it matters to spend more money.