4 ms·

Microsoft office is far and ahead the best document system- you probably use open source and standards compliant gdocs? Bringing it up in comparison for no rea

by fxfan 8y ago

Microsoft office is far and ahead the best document system- you probably use open source and standards compliant gdocs? Bringing it up in comparison for no reason and just general being hostile to MS is the reason MS doesn't listen to non-enterprise feedback. They have their faults but people like you are the ones who don't let them improve. For you, it's not about technology- its about your personal grudges.

ajvs 8y ago
No, I use LibreOffice which is an open-source solution that has most of the same feature set. I simply don't believe nations should have to use proprietary solutions for something as simple as documents and taxpayers be forced to fund it when there are viable alternatives. That being said Outlook would have probably been a better comparison and the statement would have lost no impact, Microsoft is just the easiest proprietary software giant to point at.
DyslexicAtheist 8y ago
I've been using libreoffice since +10 years exclusively. Despite using protonmail myself if you look at it critically through a FOSS (libre) perspective it's one of the worst email platforms around which mainly benefits from the (incorrect) assumption that hosting in Switzerland is somehow safer than hosting anywhere else. They will happily comply with any court order even (or especially) from the US. And it's not that the founders chose a Swiss structure because they were themselves Swiss. Even the product were hypothetically bug-free and fully FOSS ... the marketing (with its mountains in the background and "Secure Email Based in Switzerland" tagline) plays to the sentiment that a Swiss jurisdiction makes Protonmail a safer bet than other location is itself "snakeoil" ... if I think about this for too long I might even wonder about their much more relevant claims regarding security & actual code implementation.
- zenlot 8y ago
  I just couldn't agree more with it. It's a trend now, people think that hosting in Switzerland somehow more secure than anywhere else due to their data protection laws. Which is not always true, and what you really get(from experience) pretty awful customer support in comparison to other hosting providers or co-lo services.
- s3nnyy 8y ago
  "They will happily comply with any court order even (or especially) from the US." Isn't it more true of e.g., German-based companies and less true of Swiss-based ones?
  - DyslexicAtheist 8y ago
    there is no difference afaik. the only difference is in perception which stems from the historical promise of banking secrecy. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-swiss-secrecy/era-of-bank-secrecy-ends-as-swiss-start-sharing-account-data-idUSKCN1MF13O https://www.reuters.com/article/us-swiss-secrecy/era-of-bank...
    - s3nnyy 8y ago
      I think, there is because Switzerland is not in the NATO and generally can't be that easily convinced to comply with anything.
- chmars 8y ago
  Switzerland is NOT a more secure location for data hosting / processing than many other countries. Switzerland's data protection laws are way behind the GDPR. Switzerland is struggling to adapt its data protection laws to keep its adequacy status with the EU. It has still not signed Convention 108. Switzerland's surveillance system is growing and growing. The latest revision of the relevant law was targeted at services like ProtonMail and ProtonVPN (Federal Act on the Surveillance of Post and Telecommunications). Switzerland's federal secret service has got almost unlimited power without any meaningful control and is known as a close partner of the US (thanks to Snowden leaks). Every communication in Switzerland is under mass surveillance 24/7, the metadata is stored for at least six months (civil security authorities) or longer (secret services). Switzerland's armed forces work in close cooperation with NATO. I am actually wondering whether Proton is a honeypot.
  - protonmail 8y ago
    Actually, almost everything you wrote is untrue. If you actually read the text of the Federal Act on the Surveillance of Post and Telecommunications (which is publicly available in French and German), you will see that instead of targeting ProtonMail and ProtonVPN, the legislation actually does the opposite, and explicitly exempts all but the largest telcos. You don't have to take our word for this, it's actually in the text of the law. Also, if you read the actual text of the US/Switzerland MLAT (mutual lateral assistance treaty), or the text of the Swiss Data Protection Act, you will see that "unlimited power without any meaningful control" is also patently untrue, and there are many layers of control and an explicit need to satisfy the requirements of Swiss privacy laws, even on cases originating from the US.
paavoova 8y ago
It's not a personal grudge to be against forcing proprietary formats instead of an open, standardized format for no reason other than keeping a foothold over competitors and monopolizing the market. If Office used standardized formats, compatibility between alternative office software would never have been an issue, and the end-user would be none the wiser.
bad_user 8y ago
> Bringing it up in comparison for no reason and just general being hostile to MS is the reason MS doesn't listen to non-enterprise feedback Are they really so shallow? If they don't listen to non-enterprise feedback, that can only be because they don't give a fuck due to them having a monopoly.
- fxfan 8y ago
  Or ... nobody listens to a dog that barks constantly? Is it really that hard to comprehend?
  - bad_user 8y ago
    Because that's not how companies operate. Also blaming people on the Internet for Microsoft not listening is extremely rude. But even if it were true, how is it any of our concern? Personally I couldn't care less about the way Microsoft chooses to conduct its business.

by fxfan 8y ago

ajvs 8y ago

No, I use LibreOffice which is an open-source solution that has most of the same feature set. I simply don't believe nations should have to use proprietary solutions for something as simple as documents and taxpayers be forced to fund it when there are viable alternatives. That being said Outlook would have probably been a better comparison and the statement would have lost no impact, Microsoft is just the easiest proprietary software giant to point at.

DyslexicAtheist 8y ago

I've been using libreoffice since +10 years exclusively. Despite using protonmail myself if you look at it critically through a FOSS (libre) perspective it's one of the worst email platforms around which mainly benefits from the (incorrect) assumption that hosting in Switzerland is somehow safer than hosting anywhere else. They will happily comply with any court order even (or especially) from the US. And it's not that the founders chose a Swiss structure because they were themselves Swiss. Even the product were hypothetically bug-free and fully FOSS ... the marketing (with its mountains in the background and "Secure Email Based in Switzerland" tagline) plays to the sentiment that a Swiss jurisdiction makes Protonmail a safer bet than other location is itself "snakeoil" ... if I think about this for too long I might even wonder about their much more relevant claims regarding security & actual code implementation.

zenlot 8y ago
I just couldn't agree more with it. It's a trend now, people think that hosting in Switzerland somehow more secure than anywhere else due to their data protection laws. Which is not always true, and what you really get(from experience) pretty awful customer support in comparison to other hosting providers or co-lo services.
s3nnyy 8y ago
"They will happily comply with any court order even (or especially) from the US." Isn't it more true of e.g., German-based companies and less true of Swiss-based ones?
- DyslexicAtheist 8y ago
  there is no difference afaik. the only difference is in perception which stems from the historical promise of banking secrecy. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-swiss-secrecy/era-of-bank-secrecy-ends-as-swiss-start-sharing-account-data-idUSKCN1MF13O https://www.reuters.com/article/us-swiss-secrecy/era-of-bank...
  - s3nnyy 8y ago
    I think, there is because Switzerland is not in the NATO and generally can't be that easily convinced to comply with anything.
chmars 8y ago
Switzerland is NOT a more secure location for data hosting / processing than many other countries. Switzerland's data protection laws are way behind the GDPR. Switzerland is struggling to adapt its data protection laws to keep its adequacy status with the EU. It has still not signed Convention 108. Switzerland's surveillance system is growing and growing. The latest revision of the relevant law was targeted at services like ProtonMail and ProtonVPN (Federal Act on the Surveillance of Post and Telecommunications). Switzerland's federal secret service has got almost unlimited power without any meaningful control and is known as a close partner of the US (thanks to Snowden leaks). Every communication in Switzerland is under mass surveillance 24/7, the metadata is stored for at least six months (civil security authorities) or longer (secret services). Switzerland's armed forces work in close cooperation with NATO. I am actually wondering whether Proton is a honeypot.
- protonmail 8y ago
  Actually, almost everything you wrote is untrue. If you actually read the text of the Federal Act on the Surveillance of Post and Telecommunications (which is publicly available in French and German), you will see that instead of targeting ProtonMail and ProtonVPN, the legislation actually does the opposite, and explicitly exempts all but the largest telcos. You don't have to take our word for this, it's actually in the text of the law. Also, if you read the actual text of the US/Switzerland MLAT (mutual lateral assistance treaty), or the text of the Swiss Data Protection Act, you will see that "unlimited power without any meaningful control" is also patently untrue, and there are many layers of control and an explicit need to satisfy the requirements of Swiss privacy laws, even on cases originating from the US.

paavoova 8y ago

It's not a personal grudge to be against forcing proprietary formats instead of an open, standardized format for no reason other than keeping a foothold over competitors and monopolizing the market. If Office used standardized formats, compatibility between alternative office software would never have been an issue, and the end-user would be none the wiser.

bad_user 8y ago

> Bringing it up in comparison for no reason and just general being hostile to MS is the reason MS doesn't listen to non-enterprise feedback Are they really so shallow? If they don't listen to non-enterprise feedback, that can only be because they don't give a fuck due to them having a monopoly.

fxfan 8y ago
Or ... nobody listens to a dog that barks constantly? Is it really that hard to comprehend?
- bad_user 8y ago
  Because that's not how companies operate. Also blaming people on the Internet for Microsoft not listening is extremely rude. But even if it were true, how is it any of our concern? Personally I couldn't care less about the way Microsoft chooses to conduct its business.