4 ms·

What about the moose that spent 20 minutes rescuing a chipmunk from drowning in a barrel? Or the dog who held out a stick for another dog to grab onto and esca

What about the moose that spent 20 minutes rescuing a chipmunk from drowning in a barrel? Or the dog who held out a stick for another dog to grab onto and escape the rapids? There are plenty of other examples of this, I’m sure; these two came to mind first because they were caught on video. What drives that behavior if not empathy?

drak0n1c 8y ago
Empathy is an emotion experienced by both humans and animals. I don't dispute that. But I don't believe that empathy requires intellectual awareness of the inner life of other creatures, or generalizing that to all animals as we are. Empathy is an emotional reaction, like rage at a perceived slight, and does not require thought.
- nikofeyn 8y ago
  > But I don't believe that empathy requires ... putting of oneself in another's shoes... put oneself in another's shoes is basically a definition of empathy...
  - Haga 8y ago
    The whole put oneself in other shoes process is buggy as hell, even for our species. We basically draw a flat copy with mirror neurons and run it on our own hardware. If too much divergence accumulates, the other becomes a idiot or deity depending on outcome.
- TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
  > It is an emotional reaction, like rage at a perceived slight, and does not require thought. Of course, we can't know this. It seems reasonable to speculate that other animals don't subvocalise in human languages,[1] though that doesn't necessarily mean they aren't capable of thought.[2] 1. It also seems reasonable to me to believe that dogs (some dogs?) might be capable of understanding some human language beyond simple commands. I typically have more luck with my two 2yo Border Collie cross if I explain to them why we're doing a new thing. More research is needed. Please deposit funds in my offshore bank account. 2. We could debate what is meant by thought, I believe that would be a distraction
- tuesdayrain 8y ago
  Empathy often does require conscious thought from me, I'm curious if that makes me a sociopath. I have to intentionally imagine myself in the other person's situation to understand why they might be upset about something. For example when I heard about the student who was recently suspended for creating an N-word pass at school, I felt that those who were offended were just being overly sensitive. I only changed my mind after someone suggested imagining the same thing with a slur against my ethnicity. I just don't seem to empathize with people by default in most situations.
  - dd36 8y ago
    A kid that hurts herself and is crying requires conscious empathy?
  - anigbrowl 8y ago
    The best clinical instrument for 'measuring' sociopathy is the Hare PCL-R, which tries to estimate both a person's tendency to engage in hostile interpersonal behavior and their attachment to social norms - you could think of it as the difference between actively murdering people vs. callously watching them die without helping. One can have a high score on one part of the scale and not on the other. Obviously this is far short of being an exact science. As for empathy, it might be an inherent quality but I'm inclined to think that it's like most other things, you can cultivate it with practice and it manifests different ways in different people.
pvaldes 8y ago
> What about the moose that spent 20 minutes rescuing a chipmunk from drowning in a barrel? Maybe he was just hungry... many big herbivores like cows and deer eat small animals gladly when available. Maybe the leopard taking care of the gazella's calf after eating their mum is thinking "I'll save this tasty snack for later" and protects it from other predators for selfish reasons. Our interpretation of what are thinking the animals can be wrong.
- theon144 8y ago
  >Our interpretation of what are thinking the animals can be wrong. Of course it can, but by resorting to this sort of interpretative relativism, you're bringing the debate no further. Of course we can never tell whether animals feel anything such as emotion, but at this level, so you can't of other humans. In other words, the interpretation of emotions as authenthic rich mental states is just as valid for animals as it is for humans.
  - pvaldes 8y ago
    > A) Of course we can never tell whether animals feel anything such as emotion, I could think in some exceptions to this rule, but lets ignore the "never" and assume that this is true for now. > B) but at this level, so you can't of other humans. False. Even if I can't communicate with a slug, I can communicate fairly well with other humans, feel empathy and understand their feelings. > C) In other words, the interpretation of emotions as authenthic rich mental states is just as valid for animals as it is for humans. Causal phallacy. A is true, so B is true [in fact is false], so C is equally valid for A and B. In fact neither A (of course we can't interpretate emotions of animals), nor B (we can't interpretate emotions in humans) justify C (therefore the interpretation of emotions is valid in both animals and humans).
- celrod 8y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJ_3BN0m7S8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJ_3BN0m7S8 I would bet this bear actually would have eaten the crow, had that been its intention. I'd think the leopard taking care of a calf is more likely to think it looks "cute" for similar biological reasons we do, and take care of it for that reason. I would guess that a leopard in particular, if it wanted to store food, would be inclined to save it for later by just caching it (dead) in a tree. I also think "instincts" manifest themselves through emotion / emotion is how we experience instinct. We feel fear, love, etc depending on the situation, and then it's these emotions that drive us to act in the manner we do. Our actions are moderated by language-enhanced reflection, which is were we're really ahead of other animals.
cm2187 8y ago
Or the guy killed by his "pet" lion this week [1]. Animals mostly follow their instinct, and it is absurd/dangerous to anthropomorphise their behavior. [1] https://inews.co.uk/news/world/michal-prasek-czech-man-killed-by-lion-pet-back-garden/ https://inews.co.uk/news/world/michal-prasek-czech-man-kille...
- mrhappyunhappy 8y ago
  And they had to shoot the lions to get to the man. Hmmm. Ok. Man, some people are just so stupid.
- jblazevic 8y ago
  Or the girl killed by her “mother” this week [1]. Humans mostly follow their instinct, and it is absurd/dangerous not to zoomorphise their behavior. [1] https://abcnews.go.com/US/mother-accused-killing-14-year-daughter-girl-dialed/story?id=59924444 https://abcnews.go.com/US/mother-accused-killing-14-year-dau...

drak0n1c 8y ago

Empathy is an emotion experienced by both humans and animals. I don't dispute that. But I don't believe that empathy requires intellectual awareness of the inner life of other creatures, or generalizing that to all animals as we are. Empathy is an emotional reaction, like rage at a perceived slight, and does not require thought.

nikofeyn 8y ago
> But I don't believe that empathy requires ... putting of oneself in another's shoes... put oneself in another's shoes is basically a definition of empathy...
- Haga 8y ago
  The whole put oneself in other shoes process is buggy as hell, even for our species. We basically draw a flat copy with mirror neurons and run it on our own hardware. If too much divergence accumulates, the other becomes a idiot or deity depending on outcome.
TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
> It is an emotional reaction, like rage at a perceived slight, and does not require thought. Of course, we can't know this. It seems reasonable to speculate that other animals don't subvocalise in human languages,[1] though that doesn't necessarily mean they aren't capable of thought.[2] 1. It also seems reasonable to me to believe that dogs (some dogs?) might be capable of understanding some human language beyond simple commands. I typically have more luck with my two 2yo Border Collie cross if I explain to them why we're doing a new thing. More research is needed. Please deposit funds in my offshore bank account. 2. We could debate what is meant by thought, I believe that would be a distraction
tuesdayrain 8y ago
Empathy often does require conscious thought from me, I'm curious if that makes me a sociopath. I have to intentionally imagine myself in the other person's situation to understand why they might be upset about something. For example when I heard about the student who was recently suspended for creating an N-word pass at school, I felt that those who were offended were just being overly sensitive. I only changed my mind after someone suggested imagining the same thing with a slur against my ethnicity. I just don't seem to empathize with people by default in most situations.
- dd36 8y ago
  A kid that hurts herself and is crying requires conscious empathy?
- anigbrowl 8y ago
  The best clinical instrument for 'measuring' sociopathy is the Hare PCL-R, which tries to estimate both a person's tendency to engage in hostile interpersonal behavior and their attachment to social norms - you could think of it as the difference between actively murdering people vs. callously watching them die without helping. One can have a high score on one part of the scale and not on the other. Obviously this is far short of being an exact science. As for empathy, it might be an inherent quality but I'm inclined to think that it's like most other things, you can cultivate it with practice and it manifests different ways in different people.

pvaldes 8y ago

> What about the moose that spent 20 minutes rescuing a chipmunk from drowning in a barrel? Maybe he was just hungry... many big herbivores like cows and deer eat small animals gladly when available. Maybe the leopard taking care of the gazella's calf after eating their mum is thinking "I'll save this tasty snack for later" and protects it from other predators for selfish reasons. Our interpretation of what are thinking the animals can be wrong.

theon144 8y ago
>Our interpretation of what are thinking the animals can be wrong. Of course it can, but by resorting to this sort of interpretative relativism, you're bringing the debate no further. Of course we can never tell whether animals feel anything such as emotion, but at this level, so you can't of other humans. In other words, the interpretation of emotions as authenthic rich mental states is just as valid for animals as it is for humans.
- pvaldes 8y ago
  > A) Of course we can never tell whether animals feel anything such as emotion, I could think in some exceptions to this rule, but lets ignore the "never" and assume that this is true for now. > B) but at this level, so you can't of other humans. False. Even if I can't communicate with a slug, I can communicate fairly well with other humans, feel empathy and understand their feelings. > C) In other words, the interpretation of emotions as authenthic rich mental states is just as valid for animals as it is for humans. Causal phallacy. A is true, so B is true [in fact is false], so C is equally valid for A and B. In fact neither A (of course we can't interpretate emotions of animals), nor B (we can't interpretate emotions in humans) justify C (therefore the interpretation of emotions is valid in both animals and humans).
celrod 8y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJ_3BN0m7S8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJ_3BN0m7S8 I would bet this bear actually would have eaten the crow, had that been its intention. I'd think the leopard taking care of a calf is more likely to think it looks "cute" for similar biological reasons we do, and take care of it for that reason. I would guess that a leopard in particular, if it wanted to store food, would be inclined to save it for later by just caching it (dead) in a tree. I also think "instincts" manifest themselves through emotion / emotion is how we experience instinct. We feel fear, love, etc depending on the situation, and then it's these emotions that drive us to act in the manner we do. Our actions are moderated by language-enhanced reflection, which is were we're really ahead of other animals.

cm2187 8y ago

Or the guy killed by his "pet" lion this week [1]. Animals mostly follow their instinct, and it is absurd/dangerous to anthropomorphise their behavior. [1] https://inews.co.uk/news/world/michal-prasek-czech-man-killed-by-lion-pet-back-garden/ https://inews.co.uk/news/world/michal-prasek-czech-man-kille...

mrhappyunhappy 8y ago
And they had to shoot the lions to get to the man. Hmmm. Ok. Man, some people are just so stupid.
jblazevic 8y ago
Or the girl killed by her “mother” this week [1]. Humans mostly follow their instinct, and it is absurd/dangerous not to zoomorphise their behavior. [1] https://abcnews.go.com/US/mother-accused-killing-14-year-daughter-girl-dialed/story?id=59924444 https://abcnews.go.com/US/mother-accused-killing-14-year-dau...