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>The bear does not lament its catch, the whale does not wonder at the inner life of a fish it accidentally swallows. Neither do humans, of course. Do you stop
by koboll 8y ago
>The bear does not lament its catch, the whale does not wonder at the inner life of a fish it accidentally swallows.
Neither do humans, of course. Do you stop and grieve for the chicken you just grilled and ate?
Obviously animals are capable of recognizing that other creatures have emotions, too--any dog or cat owner can tell you that. But clearly, like us, they don't always choose empathy.
- jonnycoder 8y agoYes actually I do when it’s an animal I hunted myself, butchered and later prepared. I think you touch on the problem though, since grocery store meat does not elicit such response from me and everyone else.
- TheSpiceIsLife 8y agoThat may be true in your case, but it certainly isn't necessary nor universal. We're certainly capable of it. It remains unclear whether other animals are capable.
- ozim 8y agoI have to see vegan bears and vegan whales, I only know humans who are able to decide not to eat other animals based on their beliefs.
- root_axis 8y agoWell, among omnivore animals it is certainly true that some individual animals would fit the literal definition of vegan. You probably wouldn't ever know about it unless it lived in a zoo, however.
- pvaldes 8y agoYou can see vegan bears in most big zoos. Panda bears. I'm not aware of any vegan whale but would ressemble manatees probably.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- Varcht 8y agoI think you missed the point, this is more vegans by choice or conscience, as Bruce the shark would say "Fish are friends.".
- Cacti 8y agoWhen an adult chimp kills another adult chimp and doesn’t eat them, is that not because of beliefs? There are many animals that don’t eat everything that comes their way, and it is clearly a conscious decision.
- nwatson 8y agoI guess it depends on the chimp's religious beliefs. These unstaged chimps from BBC PlanetEarth clearly has no compunction about eating a rival gang's carcass: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=al-f_WWoHI4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=al-f_WWoHI4 .
- yeahitslikethat 8y agoThey'll gang up and murder or perhaps execute members of their own group.
- distant_hat 8y agoThey'll even kill the children of low ranking females just to emphasize the dominance hierarchy. Mother nature is a bitch.
- kakarot 8y agoIt's not quite what you're looking for, but animals have at least been shown to exhibit preference of what species animals they will eat. Consider a dog which has been raised around cats, which might hunt a rabbit but not another cat.
- tmh88j 8y ago>It's not quite what you're looking for, but animals have at least been shown to exhibit preference of what species animals they will eat. Occam's razor says that most wild animals exhibit preference of what species they'll eat based on taste and availability of food, not because of ethics. I said most because I'm not a wildlife biologist and there always seems to be strange outliers, but I have a hard time believing an omnivore/carnivore, such as a bear, would willingly choose vegetation 100% of the time because of ethics when there's plenty of game of its preference to eat. >Consider a dog which has been raised around cats, which might hunt a rabbit but not another cat. Most domesticated dogs that were raised alongside cats won't eat them because they've learned that they're not allowed to. The ones that do attack children and other pets are frequently euthanized.
- nearbuy 8y agoDogs raised alongside cats never even try to eat them to begin with. You don't need to teach them it's not allowed. There must be another explanation.
- tmh88j 8y ago>Dogs raised alongside cats never even try to eat them to begin with. You don't need to teach them it's not allowed. That's an absurd statement. While tempers of dogs vary from one to the next just like humans, I vehemently disagree to the extent that I'm hesitant to believe you've ever raised a puppy, or even have been exposed to many dogs for that matter. Plenty of pet dogs behave more like their wolf ancestors than others.
- kakarot 8y ago
- ddingus 8y agoWhen that belief is one of another being in the pack, or a friend, animals do make that kind of decision.
- everdev 8y agoThere are plenty of indigenous cultures that show respect to their kill. And plenty of modern societies that show respect our say a prayer or give thanks before a meal. It's possible to show empathy and respect without grief.
- hjek 8y agoBut it's also OK to grieve for murdered animals.
- justtopost 8y agoYou clearly have more time than I do. I think I witness a wild kill on my property nearly daily.
- ip26 8y agoDo you stop and grieve for the chicken you just grilled and ate? I did cry the first time I butchered a chicken.
- yeahitslikethat 8y agoIt's sad. But it's real. Its not hidden behind concrete walls. You're doing that. Not paying 18 people away to do it for you. And the chicken probably had a better life.
- lugg 8y agoYes but did you cry the first time to ate one?
- ip26 8y agoI'll admit I did not, because I was probably six months old.
- birdiesanders 8y agoAnd had you not been in a position to have life explained to you, as your species did not have those kinds of descriptive ability, would you ha e ever felt the shame? The bear does not lament, as he was never told to.
- black-tea 8y agoFirst time you butchered it or first time you killed it?
- tacotime 8y agoI've put a road kill deer in my trunk, brought it home, strung it up under my deck and butchered it by myself in the night. I will tell you that was far more emotional for me than any shot I've ever taken with a rifle or shotgun. The butchering can certainly be more emotional that the killing... it might 10 seconds to grab an axe and swing and then at least 30 minutes to cut the skin and pull it off of the body, to cut the body cavity open and to slice out the internal organs. It feels different than say preforming an autopsy in biology lab... you might have this moment as I have where you realize that the story you tell yourself, that you're a killer with a higher purpose, is just that -- a story. It doesn't make the animal you murdered feel any better about the fate it met at your hand. I would guess it is a significantly different feeling in cultures where a large portion of the population kill what they eat. Even here where I live, in rural Pennsylvania, people will often look at you like you're a sociopath if you tell them you killed and skinned and ate any animal other than a deer, and yet, the first day of hunting season there were often many empty chairs in school because dad wanted to take his kid out to celebrate a time honored tradition. Those kids don't often cry when they kill their deer, they often feel an overwhelming sense of pride. And then they pay a processor $50 so that they don't have to do the hard dirty work themselves.
- DyslexicAtheist 8y agowhat's missing in this discussion is a mention that humans are well capable of wiping out other species and have done so fully aware. we're also perfectly capable of wiping each other out for no reason other than status. I keep engaging in morbid thought experiments to figure out how certain people feel when they commit certain acts and whether I would be able to do the same provided the circumstances are hard enough. A few examples: if I could blink my eye and all the valuables and money of everyone in this room/house etc would suddenly be mine, how much would that be, and would I do it? if I could blink my eye and everyone in that room/building would vanish from the earth would I do it? if I could blink my eye and 2/3 of the earths human population would be wiped out by x/y/z would I do it? if I would be forced to work in a concentration camp being tasked with horrid acts against humans ... maybe with the alternative of being killed myself or having my family etc (spin that further what if I didn't have a family and just my dog that would be sacrificed if I were to refuse) ... ... the answers always terrify me.
- sonnyblarney 8y ago"Neither do humans" We talk about it all the time. We have industries built around it. We write books about it. Maybe bears could read our books? Whoops! They can't read! Or tie their shoes, or set the dinner table. Maybe we're special after all ...