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I believe this is a classic "finger pointing at the moon" issue where you value words more than the meaning. The question isn't whether or not they feel emotion

I believe this is a classic "finger pointing at the moon" issue where you value words more than the meaning. The question isn't whether or not they feel emotions as we have boxed them up and given names to, but as they are in experience. Of course animals have no such conception of deeper emotions, at least in the same way that we think about them, but that doesn't mean that animals do (or don't) experience them. It just means our method of boxing up experiences into communicable terms probably doesn't match their own.

drak0n1c 8y ago
I am not disputing the fact that many animals experience emotions and consciousness just as we do. I was taking issue with the parent comment's framing of our attitudes as "just human conceit". I am saying that conceitedness is the same as the emotional and other mental phenomena that we are discussing - it is shared by all animals. Occasionally, we can overcome the conceitedness. I think that makes us special.
- sabizmil 8y ago
  Ah I misunderstood the point that you were trying to make, but it makes more sense now and is something I can agree with. Thanks for the clarification.
nikofeyn 8y ago
> Of course animals have no such conception of deeper emotions, at least in the same way that we think about them how can you possibly claim that?
- TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
  I took it to mean it seems self evident that other animals don't have a x-thousand year history of oral and written ponderings of the mind. I don't necessarily hold that belief, who knows what the birds and dolphins are jabbering on about.
- sabizmil 8y ago
  Because "deeper emotions" is something defined by us, humans, and is probably completely meaningless without a complete understanding of how we define emotions in the first place. I'm not saying they don't have these emotions, just that they probably don't have the same concepts surrounding them as we do. I could very well be wrong, but I'd have to find a non-human animal willing to discuss the topic with me.
  - nikofeyn 8y ago
    > Because "deeper emotions" is something defined by us, humans, and is probably completely meaningless without a complete understanding of how we define emotions in the first place. i am sorry, but that doesn’t make any sense. a concept has meaning beyond its human definition. it isn’t like emotions didn’t exist until humans “defined” them. i am sure there are animals willing to discuss it with you, it’s just that you (us) can’t understand them. it is very possible that animals feel deeper emotional connections than we do. orcas showcase some very deep emotional states.
    - sabizmil 8y ago
      I'm not saying that emotions don't exist, just that the meaning is completely separate from the way that we define it. For example many languages define colors differently (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMqZR3pqMjg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMqZR3pqMjg), but this doesn't mean that the different wavelengths don't exist. Cultures categorized them for the purpose of communication and it's only within the context of that categorization that you can understand the meaning. Earlier I referenced "finger pointing at the moon" and this is exactly it. The word is the finger and the meaning is the moon, and we shouldn't mistake the finger for the moon. > i am sure there are animals willing to discuss it with you, it’s just that you (us) can’t understand them. I was half-joking, there are already animals that we can understand and communicate with. It's just a matter of finding them :P https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GorgFtCqPEs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GorgFtCqPEs > it is very possible that animals feel deeper emotional connections than we do. orcas showcase some very deep emotional states. No doubt. Even visiting an animal shelter exposes some of the deep emotional state that dogs and cats can be in, and I'm sure that barely scratches the surface when considering all of the different species and circumstances.
- everdev 8y ago
  I think the simplest test would be to determine if animals had a sound or body language for that emotion. We can clearly see or hear when most mammals are experiencing fear, joy, sadness, anger, etc. They might not understand it intellectually, but I think we'd be hard pressed to argue that they don't feel it or understand that their emotion is in response to an event they experienced.

drak0n1c 8y ago

I am not disputing the fact that many animals experience emotions and consciousness just as we do. I was taking issue with the parent comment's framing of our attitudes as "just human conceit". I am saying that conceitedness is the same as the emotional and other mental phenomena that we are discussing - it is shared by all animals. Occasionally, we can overcome the conceitedness. I think that makes us special.

sabizmil 8y ago
Ah I misunderstood the point that you were trying to make, but it makes more sense now and is something I can agree with. Thanks for the clarification.

nikofeyn 8y ago

> Of course animals have no such conception of deeper emotions, at least in the same way that we think about them how can you possibly claim that?

TheSpiceIsLife 8y ago
I took it to mean it seems self evident that other animals don't have a x-thousand year history of oral and written ponderings of the mind. I don't necessarily hold that belief, who knows what the birds and dolphins are jabbering on about.
sabizmil 8y ago
Because "deeper emotions" is something defined by us, humans, and is probably completely meaningless without a complete understanding of how we define emotions in the first place. I'm not saying they don't have these emotions, just that they probably don't have the same concepts surrounding them as we do. I could very well be wrong, but I'd have to find a non-human animal willing to discuss the topic with me.
- nikofeyn 8y ago
  > Because "deeper emotions" is something defined by us, humans, and is probably completely meaningless without a complete understanding of how we define emotions in the first place. i am sorry, but that doesn’t make any sense. a concept has meaning beyond its human definition. it isn’t like emotions didn’t exist until humans “defined” them. i am sure there are animals willing to discuss it with you, it’s just that you (us) can’t understand them. it is very possible that animals feel deeper emotional connections than we do. orcas showcase some very deep emotional states.
  - sabizmil 8y ago
    I'm not saying that emotions don't exist, just that the meaning is completely separate from the way that we define it. For example many languages define colors differently (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMqZR3pqMjg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMqZR3pqMjg), but this doesn't mean that the different wavelengths don't exist. Cultures categorized them for the purpose of communication and it's only within the context of that categorization that you can understand the meaning. Earlier I referenced "finger pointing at the moon" and this is exactly it. The word is the finger and the meaning is the moon, and we shouldn't mistake the finger for the moon. > i am sure there are animals willing to discuss it with you, it’s just that you (us) can’t understand them. I was half-joking, there are already animals that we can understand and communicate with. It's just a matter of finding them :P https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GorgFtCqPEs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GorgFtCqPEs > it is very possible that animals feel deeper emotional connections than we do. orcas showcase some very deep emotional states. No doubt. Even visiting an animal shelter exposes some of the deep emotional state that dogs and cats can be in, and I'm sure that barely scratches the surface when considering all of the different species and circumstances.
everdev 8y ago
I think the simplest test would be to determine if animals had a sound or body language for that emotion. We can clearly see or hear when most mammals are experiencing fear, joy, sadness, anger, etc. They might not understand it intellectually, but I think we'd be hard pressed to argue that they don't feel it or understand that their emotion is in response to an event they experienced.