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It's funny how much people have danced around all this, including this article, but what Musk has done with his statements on self-driving capabilities is calle

by CPLX 8y ago

It's funny how much people have danced around all this, including this article, but what Musk has done with his statements on self-driving capabilities is called lying.

RivieraKid 8y ago
It wouldn't be the first.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
xeromal 8y ago
If someone has a delusional idea, is it still a lie? I don't think Musk 'lies' to earn more money. I think he is delusional for how long certain things take to do and at worst is trying to keep his companies afloat so he can continue with his ideas. I'd say his sins are less than the CEO of Enron for instance. It's hard to blame the guy when he successfully built a rocket company.
- fastball 8y ago
  You could almost call him the successful / less pathological Elizabeth Holmes. He promises the future before it has arrived, but unlike Theranos, he actually delivers a product. That product might be inferior to what was promised, but it is an improvement on the status quo nonetheless. And once released, Musk does not lie about its capabilities.
  - lazyasciiart 8y ago
    > > "We already have full self-driving capability on highways," Musk said during a January earnings call. That statement certainly isn't true for any meaningful value of 'self-driving'.
  - SheinhardtWigCo 8y ago
    This is on the order page for the Model 3 right now: > Summon: your parked car will come find you anywhere in a parking lot. Really. Except that feature hasn’t shipped and there’s no ETA. I call that a lie. I appreciate what Tesla is doing to the industry but I wish they wouldn’t be so dishonest in their marketing.
    - Negitivefrags 8y ago
      Actually that particular feature is currently in beta testing and the ETA is a few weeks. It has a limit of 150 feet and I’m sure in practise it will just annoy other drivers unless the parking lot is fairly empty, but there you are. https://electrek.co/2019/03/01/tesla-enhanced-summon-self-driving-parking-lots/ https://electrek.co/2019/03/01/tesla-enhanced-summon-self-dr...
- seem_2211 8y ago
  If it is a publicly traded company, and that person is an executive, then yes it is both a lie and securities fraud. If it's a startup or anything else where it's not a public company, then it's ok to be simply delusional. His sins may be less than those of the CEO of Enron, but that's a very low bar (after all Enron was the largest corporate bankruptcy ever when it collapsed), and people have gone to jail for much less. I get the hero worship, but it doesn't stop Musk from being a criminal.
- CPLX 8y ago
  > I don't think Musk 'lies' to earn more money. Telling people that the actual physical car they are currently purchasing from his company will soon be capable of autonomous driving when, in fact, it isn't, and won't ever be, seems to be a pretty straightforward contradiction of that statement.
  - leesec 8y ago
    Why do you think it won't ever be? Also that's literally just your opinion that it won't soon be capable. It's definitely Musk's opinion that it will soon be capable. Mine too.
    - CPLX 8y ago
      I'm talking about an actual car that was sold like a two years ago to someone. I mean it's possible that Tesla someday will be able to create some kind of autonomous car and sell it to someone. But they've been claiming that the cars people already have will, in the future, be able to be autonomous. Those statements are most accurately described as lying.
      - leesec 8y ago
        Tesla's plan is to replace the Nvidia chip in the car with it's own much more powerful chip. This is going to allow them to achieve autonomy. Those cars sold 2 years ago will be autonomous. That's the plan anyways.
    - FireBeyond 8y ago
      Musk is stating, for the record, that your Tesla will be able to drive, _coast to coast_, full level 5 autonomy - poor roads, blizzard conditions - THIS YEAR. Given that the autopilot system has been evolving for five years (introduced in 2014 for Tesla) and still has problems like "aims at water barriers and accelerates", "fails to recognize that trucks may be more complex than simple cube in space", "fails to recognize that vehicles of a certain color may be hard to see when driving towards the sun"... and that will all be solved "this year" (t minus 9 months and change) seems... supremely optimistic. I was going to call it naive, but that's an insult - Elon certainly knows far more about self driving than I do. But this is the equivalent of man kind making fire, making the wheel, and then turning that into a car as the next logical step, ignoring all the interim.
- ec109685 8y ago
  What do you call founders that promise their company will take over the world to VC’s and then burn out spectacularly?
ufmace 8y ago
Lying seems to have a strong moral component in English that doesn't seem to be evident here. Most people would say that a proper "lie" involves intentionally trying to convince somebody of something that you know is not true, usually for personal gain. If Musk honestly believes that he can do it, then I guess it isn't technically a lie, even if most people who know the industry say he would have to be delusional to believe that. It does feel a bit pedantic to say that though. If Musk is sometimes delusionally optimistic instead of intentionally deceptive, how much does it matter to us? I guess the level of delusionalism does vary some - Tesla might meet vehicle production targets, SpaceX might meet their intended date for the first crewed mission, but a Tesla car with current production hardware driving coast to coast while the driver reads a book sometime this year has no chance whatsoever of happening. Also worth considering that the Silicon Valley VC universe does tend to reward people who could be described as being delusionally optimistic, and thus encourage them to continue to think in that way.
- ksherlock 8y ago
  Ahh, the old George Costanza defense.
- threeseed 8y ago
  Musk benefits financially from deceiving the public. So there is clear wilful intent combined with actual deceit. Sounds pretty clear cut to me.
  - erikpukinskis 8y ago
    What's your evidence of intent?
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

by CPLX 8y ago

It's funny how much people have danced around all this, including this article, but what Musk has done with his statements on self-driving capabilities is called lying.

RivieraKid 8y ago

It wouldn't be the first.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

xeromal 8y ago

If someone has a delusional idea, is it still a lie? I don't think Musk 'lies' to earn more money. I think he is delusional for how long certain things take to do and at worst is trying to keep his companies afloat so he can continue with his ideas. I'd say his sins are less than the CEO of Enron for instance. It's hard to blame the guy when he successfully built a rocket company.

fastball 8y ago
You could almost call him the successful / less pathological Elizabeth Holmes. He promises the future before it has arrived, but unlike Theranos, he actually delivers a product. That product might be inferior to what was promised, but it is an improvement on the status quo nonetheless. And once released, Musk does not lie about its capabilities.
- lazyasciiart 8y ago
  > > "We already have full self-driving capability on highways," Musk said during a January earnings call. That statement certainly isn't true for any meaningful value of 'self-driving'.
- SheinhardtWigCo 8y ago
  This is on the order page for the Model 3 right now: > Summon: your parked car will come find you anywhere in a parking lot. Really. Except that feature hasn’t shipped and there’s no ETA. I call that a lie. I appreciate what Tesla is doing to the industry but I wish they wouldn’t be so dishonest in their marketing.
  - Negitivefrags 8y ago
    Actually that particular feature is currently in beta testing and the ETA is a few weeks. It has a limit of 150 feet and I’m sure in practise it will just annoy other drivers unless the parking lot is fairly empty, but there you are. https://electrek.co/2019/03/01/tesla-enhanced-summon-self-driving-parking-lots/ https://electrek.co/2019/03/01/tesla-enhanced-summon-self-dr...
seem_2211 8y ago
If it is a publicly traded company, and that person is an executive, then yes it is both a lie and securities fraud. If it's a startup or anything else where it's not a public company, then it's ok to be simply delusional. His sins may be less than those of the CEO of Enron, but that's a very low bar (after all Enron was the largest corporate bankruptcy ever when it collapsed), and people have gone to jail for much less. I get the hero worship, but it doesn't stop Musk from being a criminal.
CPLX 8y ago
> I don't think Musk 'lies' to earn more money. Telling people that the actual physical car they are currently purchasing from his company will soon be capable of autonomous driving when, in fact, it isn't, and won't ever be, seems to be a pretty straightforward contradiction of that statement.
- leesec 8y ago
  Why do you think it won't ever be? Also that's literally just your opinion that it won't soon be capable. It's definitely Musk's opinion that it will soon be capable. Mine too.
  - CPLX 8y ago
    I'm talking about an actual car that was sold like a two years ago to someone. I mean it's possible that Tesla someday will be able to create some kind of autonomous car and sell it to someone. But they've been claiming that the cars people already have will, in the future, be able to be autonomous. Those statements are most accurately described as lying.
    - leesec 8y ago
      Tesla's plan is to replace the Nvidia chip in the car with it's own much more powerful chip. This is going to allow them to achieve autonomy. Those cars sold 2 years ago will be autonomous. That's the plan anyways.
  - FireBeyond 8y ago
    Musk is stating, for the record, that your Tesla will be able to drive, _coast to coast_, full level 5 autonomy - poor roads, blizzard conditions - THIS YEAR. Given that the autopilot system has been evolving for five years (introduced in 2014 for Tesla) and still has problems like "aims at water barriers and accelerates", "fails to recognize that trucks may be more complex than simple cube in space", "fails to recognize that vehicles of a certain color may be hard to see when driving towards the sun"... and that will all be solved "this year" (t minus 9 months and change) seems... supremely optimistic. I was going to call it naive, but that's an insult - Elon certainly knows far more about self driving than I do. But this is the equivalent of man kind making fire, making the wheel, and then turning that into a car as the next logical step, ignoring all the interim.
ec109685 8y ago
What do you call founders that promise their company will take over the world to VC’s and then burn out spectacularly?

ufmace 8y ago

Lying seems to have a strong moral component in English that doesn't seem to be evident here. Most people would say that a proper "lie" involves intentionally trying to convince somebody of something that you know is not true, usually for personal gain. If Musk honestly believes that he can do it, then I guess it isn't technically a lie, even if most people who know the industry say he would have to be delusional to believe that. It does feel a bit pedantic to say that though. If Musk is sometimes delusionally optimistic instead of intentionally deceptive, how much does it matter to us? I guess the level of delusionalism does vary some - Tesla might meet vehicle production targets, SpaceX might meet their intended date for the first crewed mission, but a Tesla car with current production hardware driving coast to coast while the driver reads a book sometime this year has no chance whatsoever of happening. Also worth considering that the Silicon Valley VC universe does tend to reward people who could be described as being delusionally optimistic, and thus encourage them to continue to think in that way.

ksherlock 8y ago
Ahh, the old George Costanza defense.
threeseed 8y ago
Musk benefits financially from deceiving the public. So there is clear wilful intent combined with actual deceit. Sounds pretty clear cut to me.
- erikpukinskis 8y ago
  What's your evidence of intent?

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]