4 ms·

My background is not in quantum mechanics, so I could be totally misunderstanding the idea of quantum indeterminacy, but I thought it had to do with what we can

by jawns 8y ago

My background is not in quantum mechanics, so I could be totally misunderstanding the idea of quantum indeterminacy, but I thought it had to do with what we can know based on measurement. But a truly omniscient being would not have to rely on measurement. So ... Are you saying an omniscient being is impossible, because something about quantum mechanics implies that it is impossible to possess all possible knowledge? Or are you saying that even if an omniscient being possesses all possible knowledge, they would nevertheless be unable to accurately predict all sequences because of some knowledge we have about quantum mechanics?

wongarsu 8y ago
We experience the world as a series of observations. Predicting those seems to be fundamentally impossible. Of course that still leaves room for an omniscient being that never collapses the wave function and just deals in probabilities. But then your predicitions sound like "there's a 99.978% probability you will be hit by a car on tuesday at 10:04 am." with the remaining 0.022% accounting for quantum flactuations adding up to produce a different result. Whether you call that "all knowing" and whether that proves that nothing is random sounds like an interesting philosophical question.
justinpombrio 8y ago
> Are you saying an omniscient being is impossible, because something about quantum mechanics implies that it is impossible to possess all possible knowledge? > Or are you saying that even if an omniscient being possesses all possible knowledge, they would nevertheless be unable to accurately predict all sequences because of some knowledge we have about quantum mechanics? That's an extremely astute question. I'm impressed that you managed to realize that that's an important distinction and that you don't know which it is. It's actually the latter, and incredibly we can prove it. And the proof of this is surprisingly accessible: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcqZHYo7ONs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcqZHYo7ONs
- jawns 8y ago
  I'm still not sold on this. I'm no quantum mechanics expert, but I do have a philosophy background, and it seems as if true omniscience -- possessing all possible knowledge -- seems like it should transcend this limitation. Maybe I'm thinking about a form of omniscience that exists outside of time, in which case, of course an omniscient being would know what happens next, because they would know the future just as well as the past. (Example: Any omniscient being will know which photons will pass through a polarizing lens not based on prediction but based on already knowing the outcome.)
  - thfuran 8y ago
    Such an entity cannot exist.
    - prophesi 8y ago
      Such a statement can't be proven.
      - thfuran 8y ago
        Sure, just append "unless it turns out we were wrong" to every scientific and mathematical claim if it helps you feel better.
        prophesi 8y ago
        I only append that to philosophical claims and string theory.
        chrisweekly 8y ago
        "philosophical claims and string theory" sounds redundant to me
    - jawns 8y ago
      Interesting. I can point you to some very influential philosophers who argue that not only can such an entity exist, it necessarily exists. Can you tell me more about why you think it can't?
jrochkind1 8y ago
Turning the math into words is subject to interpretation (because it's _so weird_, it's not clear what it means; and I'm no physicist or mathematician either, but my understanding is...), but quantum mechanics seems to say there are physical laws actually limiting how precisely something can be known. Which is part of what makes it not just "what we can know based on measurement." That is, a "truly omniscient being that would not have to rely on measurement" would apparently violate the laws of physics, is one thing quantum mechanics maybe seems to say. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle "Thus, the uncertainty principle actually states a fundamental property of quantum systems and is not a statement about the observational success of current technology"

by jawns 8y ago

wongarsu 8y ago

We experience the world as a series of observations. Predicting those seems to be fundamentally impossible. Of course that still leaves room for an omniscient being that never collapses the wave function and just deals in probabilities. But then your predicitions sound like "there's a 99.978% probability you will be hit by a car on tuesday at 10:04 am." with the remaining 0.022% accounting for quantum flactuations adding up to produce a different result. Whether you call that "all knowing" and whether that proves that nothing is random sounds like an interesting philosophical question.

justinpombrio 8y ago

> Are you saying an omniscient being is impossible, because something about quantum mechanics implies that it is impossible to possess all possible knowledge? > Or are you saying that even if an omniscient being possesses all possible knowledge, they would nevertheless be unable to accurately predict all sequences because of some knowledge we have about quantum mechanics? That's an extremely astute question. I'm impressed that you managed to realize that that's an important distinction and that you don't know which it is. It's actually the latter, and incredibly we can prove it. And the proof of this is surprisingly accessible: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcqZHYo7ONs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcqZHYo7ONs

jawns 8y ago
I'm still not sold on this. I'm no quantum mechanics expert, but I do have a philosophy background, and it seems as if true omniscience -- possessing all possible knowledge -- seems like it should transcend this limitation. Maybe I'm thinking about a form of omniscience that exists outside of time, in which case, of course an omniscient being would know what happens next, because they would know the future just as well as the past. (Example: Any omniscient being will know which photons will pass through a polarizing lens not based on prediction but based on already knowing the outcome.)
- thfuran 8y ago
  Such an entity cannot exist.
  - prophesi 8y ago
    Such a statement can't be proven.
    - thfuran 8y ago
      Sure, just append "unless it turns out we were wrong" to every scientific and mathematical claim if it helps you feel better.
      - prophesi 8y ago
        I only append that to philosophical claims and string theory.
        chrisweekly 8y ago
        "philosophical claims and string theory" sounds redundant to me
  - jawns 8y ago
    Interesting. I can point you to some very influential philosophers who argue that not only can such an entity exist, it necessarily exists. Can you tell me more about why you think it can't?

jrochkind1 8y ago

Turning the math into words is subject to interpretation (because it's _so weird_, it's not clear what it means; and I'm no physicist or mathematician either, but my understanding is...), but quantum mechanics seems to say there are physical laws actually limiting how precisely something can be known. Which is part of what makes it not just "what we can know based on measurement." That is, a "truly omniscient being that would not have to rely on measurement" would apparently violate the laws of physics, is one thing quantum mechanics maybe seems to say. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncertainty_principle "Thus, the uncertainty principle actually states a fundamental property of quantum systems and is not a statement about the observational success of current technology"