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For context: I'm VP of a software consultancy responsible for delivering software on time and on budget. My take is that older programmers who maintain their s

For context: I'm VP of a software consultancy responsible for delivering software on time and on budget. My take is that older programmers who maintain their skills on new technology are worth their weight in gold. The financial trick is to pair them with younger developers to create an overall cost effective team. If both the older and younger devs go in with the right attitude, it can be wonderful for both the project and their respective careers. I also think it's really, really dumb to push developers into management positions if they can't do the job. I'd much prefer putting younger managers with great management skills into the mix than just rotating older devs into that role. Bottom line: software requires lifelong learning. If you can't or won't stay current, you're in trouble. If you can, then it's just agism or a bad business model that's keeping you out of awesome projects.

ticmasta 8y ago
>> I also think it's really, really dumb to push developers into management positions if they can't do the job. This has been known forever, yet it still happens - Why? >> I'd much prefer putting younger managers with great management skills into the mix... One reason is it is impossible to tell if a young manager has great management skills. It's really hard to tell if an experienced manager has strong skills. As a result, technical proficiency is used as a proxy for management potential. It probably has a stronger correlation than picking a random person, but is not great. The new manager is then really unhappy, quits or is fired or eventually learns the new skills and is successful. Repeat.
- sp332 8y ago
  Some companies only have one kind of career track. If you want more money, you have to be in a manager position. They don't have a way for experienced programmers to keep moving up in their careers as programmers.
  - sidlls 8y ago
    Is there any tech company where the technical track doesn't plateau below the people-manager track?
    - lbotos 8y ago
      GitLab (I work there) does allow you to become Staff-Level which is the same multiplier as a manager.
      - sidlls 8y ago
        Yes, that's common: but I have yet to see a case where the tech track goes as high as the management track. For example, "Distinguished/Staff Engineer" might be the equivalent of a "Senior Director" in an org with two or three levels of management above that (VP, SVP/CTO, EVP, etc.).
        Shebanator 8y ago
        Google's tech track does go all the way to VP equivalents.
    - robterrell 8y ago
      Many companies have separate tracks for independent contributors and managers. You can stay an IC and level up to Distinguished Engineer or Fellow or Staff Engineer or whatever, without needing to go into management.
      - pdimitar 8y ago
        I think we might need a curated list for those. At 17 years of career I've only seen one such company.
        robterrell 8y ago
        It seems pretty common with bigger companies: Google, Apple, Facebook, Amazon, Oracle, Box, Zynga, Electronic Arts, Pinterest, Microsoft, etc. The tracks and levels are commonly referred to as the "job family architecture" -- don't be afraid to ask a recruiter for this information. Otherwise you'll never really know if you're being properly leveled. (For instance, I believe a Principal SE at Microsoft is roughly equal to a Staff Engineer at Google.)
- mental1896 8y ago
  >> I also think it's really, really dumb to push developers into management positions if they can't do the job. >This has been known forever, yet it still happens - Why? This problem exists in hardware departments too. My best guess is that they want managers familiar with the tech/industry/company. My second best guess is that it's a natural human tendency and hasn't been addressed systematically.
jgalt212 8y ago
> older programmers who maintain their skills on new technology are worth their weight in gold and also true of older programmers who maintain their skills in older technologies. see all the COBOL comments below. If history is any guide, competent Java programmers in 10 years will not be aged out, and will be compensated more than whoever is competent (regardless of age) at the current tech stack.
benatkin 8y ago
In the article they mention a Python conference. I think Python is a good counter-example. It's an old language and still as strong as ever. On Stack Overflow, it recently passed JavaScript [1]. Unlike JavaScript, new Python code isn't all that different from old Python code. A lot of older Python candidates are being passed over for younger ones. Sure they might not be learning Rust, but there are younger python developers that are having an easier time getting a job, and they aren't necessarily learning Rust either. [1]: https://stackoverflow.blog/2017/09/06/incredible-growth-python/ https://stackoverflow.blog/2017/09/06/incredible-growth-pyth... https://insights.stackoverflow.com/trends?tags=python%2Cjavascript https://insights.stackoverflow.com/trends?tags=python%2Cjava...
- Alex3917 8y ago
  > It's an old language and still as strong as ever. Does it make sense to consider Python an old language if it's still a living language? The next version is coming out in October, and most new projects started today are running on versions released within the three years. This seems pretty different than something like COBOL, where it's technically still being developed but not in anywhere near the same way.
  - benatkin 8y ago
    Not if being old has a negative connotation, or if being old implies that they have no new ideas, neither of which should be true, of technologies or of people.
  - jniedrauer 8y ago
    It's also worth noting that recent python versions have added tremendous quality of life improvements. If you haven't kept up with the language, then the code you're writing may still run, but it's not "pythonic" anymore.
    - caseymarquis 8y ago
      I haven't touched python in years. Can anyone link to a list of examples? I remember hearing about optional typing, which is always my favorite addition.
ska 8y ago
I also think it's really, really dumb to push developers into management positions if they can't do the job. Even if they can do the job, it may not be the best use of their time. If someone is really good technically, they are more difficult to replace than a competent middle manager. So if that's the trade off you are making, you are probably losing out.
mywittyname 8y ago
Companies should embrace a multi-branch management approach. Have technical managers, who are experienced engineers that can focus on ensuring that people are doing quality work and building great products. Then along-side them, the team should also have a people manager, who is responsible for navigating the politics of the company. I've had managers who were both technical and people-oriented. They both bring a lot to the table. But the older I get, the more I value having a manager I can go to who is good at managing optics and helping me deal with political or institutional roadblocks. In an idea world, I'd have both.
- ska 8y ago
  This is somewhat the dream of matrix organizations, but has it's own set of problems. But fundamentally, if you can't move the decision making power/responsibility/(+ to some degree compensation) out to non-traditional locations in your org structure, you'll naturally have to move those people towards the more traditional locations....
  - _bxg1 8y ago
    I work at a small matrix organization. Deployments and time allocation are fairly chaotic due to lack of communication, but on the other hand we do have relatively many older people doing technical work and projects are managed by a mix of older and younger people.
LifeLiverTransp 8y ago
I come frome a industry that sees software written under management that largely has no clue what software is, how to evaluate its qualitys and tech debt - and thus creates exponential tech debt time bombs.

ticmasta 8y ago

>> I also think it's really, really dumb to push developers into management positions if they can't do the job. This has been known forever, yet it still happens - Why? >> I'd much prefer putting younger managers with great management skills into the mix... One reason is it is impossible to tell if a young manager has great management skills. It's really hard to tell if an experienced manager has strong skills. As a result, technical proficiency is used as a proxy for management potential. It probably has a stronger correlation than picking a random person, but is not great. The new manager is then really unhappy, quits or is fired or eventually learns the new skills and is successful. Repeat.

sp332 8y ago
Some companies only have one kind of career track. If you want more money, you have to be in a manager position. They don't have a way for experienced programmers to keep moving up in their careers as programmers.
- sidlls 8y ago
  Is there any tech company where the technical track doesn't plateau below the people-manager track?
  - lbotos 8y ago
    GitLab (I work there) does allow you to become Staff-Level which is the same multiplier as a manager.
    - sidlls 8y ago
      Yes, that's common: but I have yet to see a case where the tech track goes as high as the management track. For example, "Distinguished/Staff Engineer" might be the equivalent of a "Senior Director" in an org with two or three levels of management above that (VP, SVP/CTO, EVP, etc.).
      - Shebanator 8y ago
        Google's tech track does go all the way to VP equivalents.
  - robterrell 8y ago
    Many companies have separate tracks for independent contributors and managers. You can stay an IC and level up to Distinguished Engineer or Fellow or Staff Engineer or whatever, without needing to go into management.
    - pdimitar 8y ago
      I think we might need a curated list for those. At 17 years of career I've only seen one such company.
      - robterrell 8y ago
        It seems pretty common with bigger companies: Google, Apple, Facebook, Amazon, Oracle, Box, Zynga, Electronic Arts, Pinterest, Microsoft, etc. The tracks and levels are commonly referred to as the "job family architecture" -- don't be afraid to ask a recruiter for this information. Otherwise you'll never really know if you're being properly leveled. (For instance, I believe a Principal SE at Microsoft is roughly equal to a Staff Engineer at Google.)
mental1896 8y ago
>> I also think it's really, really dumb to push developers into management positions if they can't do the job. >This has been known forever, yet it still happens - Why? This problem exists in hardware departments too. My best guess is that they want managers familiar with the tech/industry/company. My second best guess is that it's a natural human tendency and hasn't been addressed systematically.

jgalt212 8y ago

> older programmers who maintain their skills on new technology are worth their weight in gold and also true of older programmers who maintain their skills in older technologies. see all the COBOL comments below. If history is any guide, competent Java programmers in 10 years will not be aged out, and will be compensated more than whoever is competent (regardless of age) at the current tech stack.

benatkin 8y ago

In the article they mention a Python conference. I think Python is a good counter-example. It's an old language and still as strong as ever. On Stack Overflow, it recently passed JavaScript [1]. Unlike JavaScript, new Python code isn't all that different from old Python code. A lot of older Python candidates are being passed over for younger ones. Sure they might not be learning Rust, but there are younger python developers that are having an easier time getting a job, and they aren't necessarily learning Rust either. [1]: https://stackoverflow.blog/2017/09/06/incredible-growth-python/ https://stackoverflow.blog/2017/09/06/incredible-growth-pyth... https://insights.stackoverflow.com/trends?tags=python%2Cjavascript https://insights.stackoverflow.com/trends?tags=python%2Cjava...

Alex3917 8y ago
> It's an old language and still as strong as ever. Does it make sense to consider Python an old language if it's still a living language? The next version is coming out in October, and most new projects started today are running on versions released within the three years. This seems pretty different than something like COBOL, where it's technically still being developed but not in anywhere near the same way.
- benatkin 8y ago
  Not if being old has a negative connotation, or if being old implies that they have no new ideas, neither of which should be true, of technologies or of people.
- jniedrauer 8y ago
  It's also worth noting that recent python versions have added tremendous quality of life improvements. If you haven't kept up with the language, then the code you're writing may still run, but it's not "pythonic" anymore.
  - caseymarquis 8y ago
    I haven't touched python in years. Can anyone link to a list of examples? I remember hearing about optional typing, which is always my favorite addition.

ska 8y ago

I also think it's really, really dumb to push developers into management positions if they can't do the job. Even if they can do the job, it may not be the best use of their time. If someone is really good technically, they are more difficult to replace than a competent middle manager. So if that's the trade off you are making, you are probably losing out.

mywittyname 8y ago

Companies should embrace a multi-branch management approach. Have technical managers, who are experienced engineers that can focus on ensuring that people are doing quality work and building great products. Then along-side them, the team should also have a people manager, who is responsible for navigating the politics of the company. I've had managers who were both technical and people-oriented. They both bring a lot to the table. But the older I get, the more I value having a manager I can go to who is good at managing optics and helping me deal with political or institutional roadblocks. In an idea world, I'd have both.

ska 8y ago
This is somewhat the dream of matrix organizations, but has it's own set of problems. But fundamentally, if you can't move the decision making power/responsibility/(+ to some degree compensation) out to non-traditional locations in your org structure, you'll naturally have to move those people towards the more traditional locations....
- _bxg1 8y ago
  I work at a small matrix organization. Deployments and time allocation are fairly chaotic due to lack of communication, but on the other hand we do have relatively many older people doing technical work and projects are managed by a mix of older and younger people.

LifeLiverTransp 8y ago

I come frome a industry that sees software written under management that largely has no clue what software is, how to evaluate its qualitys and tech debt - and thus creates exponential tech debt time bombs.