4 ms·

Two questions arise from this. First - in your homework paragraph, you're associating hard work with merit. It's very common - X deserves more than Y because X

Two questions arise from this. First - in your homework paragraph, you're associating hard work with merit. It's very common - X deserves more than Y because X worked harder. Why do we consider work to be a virtue? And second - even if we have a pure measure of merit we could all agree on, how the fruits of everyone's labours are divided is still debatable. How much should the best/average/worst get compared to each other?

manfredo 8y ago
Good point, hard work in and of itself does not equate to better results in meritocracy. Meritocracy sorts people based on performance, not hard work. But hard work is generally necessary to improve performance. * If Alice trains 30 hours a week for a year for a marathon and Candice trains 2 hours a week for a year who do you think has the better chance of winning? Sure, maybe Alice has a disability, or maybe Candice is some running demigod. But if I had to put money on it I'd bet on Alice. * If half the class studies for 21 hours a week and the other studiss for 7 the which would you bet is going to have the higher class average? I can speak firsthand to the fact that there will still be big variance. Some subjects can't naturally to me, others were like a brick wall. But chances are the students putting in 3x the study will do better. So pointing out that groups that work harder get ahead is decent evidence that meritocracy does function. Especially when the groups in question are groups like Asians and Jewish people in America that were subject to significant prejudice and discrimination throughout history. Meritocracy can enable groups to overcome prejudice. Granted there are definitely groups not well served by meritocracy. Groups that don't have as much family support, and don't have a strong cultural emphasis on education (I realize this last point does mirror racial sterotyoes but I did post evidence to show truth behind it) are at a big disadvantage. Any yes, it's probably worth compromising pure meritocracy to even the playing field to a degree. Distribution of the fruits of labor is a valuable discussion, but it is tangential to the discussion of meritocracy. There will be varing distributions of wealth even if we wholly reject meritocracy.
- coldtea 8y ago
  >If Alice trains 30 hours a week for a year for a marathon and Candice trains 2 hours a week for a year who do you think has the better chance of winning? If Caleb and Makayla study 30 hours a week for a year for SATs suffering parental apathy, lack of means, working an evening job, a bad school district, and Emma and John study 20 hours a week for a year, being primed from birth for college, with understanding parents, a nice weekly allowance, and a good school district, which would you bet is going to have the higher SAT average? https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/the-wireless/373065/the-pencilsword-on-a-plate https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/the-wireless/373065/the-penci...
  - manfredo 8y ago
    I'm not sure how a web comic from New Zealand is supposed to form an effective refutation in response to quantative data on academics in the United States. In case it wasn't clear I'm most talking about America. The posted article opens with statementd from Barack Obama and Trump so I think this narrowed scope is on topic. I don't have much experience or knowledge of other countries meritocratic systems. Oppressed minorities have gotten themselves out of poverty by emphasizing hard work and education. I've already listed Jewish Americans and Asian Americans. The Irish also underwent a similar process. Back during the 19th and early 20th century Irish were widely discriminated against and many didn't consider them White. Irish community leaders started emphasizing education in the early to mid 20th century. And by 2018 Irish have succeeded to the point that Irish surnames are considered signs of privilege. Cuban American households by now make about $20k more than the average American households [1]. Latin Americans as a whole are following suit. Minorities have overcome oppression through meritocratic systems. It certainly hasn't worked for every demographic. But I don't think you're giving minorities enough credit in their ability to succeed through their own effort. 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Americans https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Americans
    - coldtea 8y ago
      >I'm not sure how a web comic from New Zealand is supposed to form an effective refutation in response to quantative data on academics in the United States. In case it wasn't clear I'm most talking about America. Let me clarify this part, then: the post is about nothing particular New Zealandish that's not also the case in the US. It has been reposted and recommended in American media so many times precisely because it is relevant in the US too. Furthermore, this is more than clear in the comic itself, which is told in a universal manner, and doesn't refer to any particular trait/habit/circumstance/factor of New Zealand life. If anything, it is more USA than New Zealand (which has much less inequality of the sort the comic criticizes). >Oppressed minorities have gotten themselves out of poverty by emphasizing hard work and education. I've already listed Jewish Americans and Asian Americans. Jewish and Asian Americans didn't have 400 years of being abducted from their countries and working to death as slaves in the USA. After the initial racism against them as newcomers subsided they were quickly tolerated. Blacks on the other had, had the contempt and the prejudice of their ex-owners and their children and grandchildren. They had started from less than 0, as they had their culture stolen from them in 400 years of slavery (as opposed to newer Jewish and Asian immigrants arriving with their old world cultures -- from "bar mitzvahs" and "delis", to "tiger moms"). Asians and Jews had their persecution up around the 40s or so, but they didn't have segregated schools, hotels, restaurants up to the late 60s. They didn't have to put up with redlining when looking for places to live (up to now). They don't have discrimination against them in white collar jobs still. They're not routinely killed without questions asked by cops in percentages unheard of for any western country police force (even accounting those countries total population, not just the black population).

manfredo 8y ago

Good point, hard work in and of itself does not equate to better results in meritocracy. Meritocracy sorts people based on performance, not hard work. But hard work is generally necessary to improve performance. * If Alice trains 30 hours a week for a year for a marathon and Candice trains 2 hours a week for a year who do you think has the better chance of winning? Sure, maybe Alice has a disability, or maybe Candice is some running demigod. But if I had to put money on it I'd bet on Alice. * If half the class studies for 21 hours a week and the other studiss for 7 the which would you bet is going to have the higher class average? I can speak firsthand to the fact that there will still be big variance. Some subjects can't naturally to me, others were like a brick wall. But chances are the students putting in 3x the study will do better. So pointing out that groups that work harder get ahead is decent evidence that meritocracy does function. Especially when the groups in question are groups like Asians and Jewish people in America that were subject to significant prejudice and discrimination throughout history. Meritocracy can enable groups to overcome prejudice. Granted there are definitely groups not well served by meritocracy. Groups that don't have as much family support, and don't have a strong cultural emphasis on education (I realize this last point does mirror racial sterotyoes but I did post evidence to show truth behind it) are at a big disadvantage. Any yes, it's probably worth compromising pure meritocracy to even the playing field to a degree. Distribution of the fruits of labor is a valuable discussion, but it is tangential to the discussion of meritocracy. There will be varing distributions of wealth even if we wholly reject meritocracy.

coldtea 8y ago
>If Alice trains 30 hours a week for a year for a marathon and Candice trains 2 hours a week for a year who do you think has the better chance of winning? If Caleb and Makayla study 30 hours a week for a year for SATs suffering parental apathy, lack of means, working an evening job, a bad school district, and Emma and John study 20 hours a week for a year, being primed from birth for college, with understanding parents, a nice weekly allowance, and a good school district, which would you bet is going to have the higher SAT average? https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/the-wireless/373065/the-pencilsword-on-a-plate https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/the-wireless/373065/the-penci...
- manfredo 8y ago
  I'm not sure how a web comic from New Zealand is supposed to form an effective refutation in response to quantative data on academics in the United States. In case it wasn't clear I'm most talking about America. The posted article opens with statementd from Barack Obama and Trump so I think this narrowed scope is on topic. I don't have much experience or knowledge of other countries meritocratic systems. Oppressed minorities have gotten themselves out of poverty by emphasizing hard work and education. I've already listed Jewish Americans and Asian Americans. The Irish also underwent a similar process. Back during the 19th and early 20th century Irish were widely discriminated against and many didn't consider them White. Irish community leaders started emphasizing education in the early to mid 20th century. And by 2018 Irish have succeeded to the point that Irish surnames are considered signs of privilege. Cuban American households by now make about $20k more than the average American households [1]. Latin Americans as a whole are following suit. Minorities have overcome oppression through meritocratic systems. It certainly hasn't worked for every demographic. But I don't think you're giving minorities enough credit in their ability to succeed through their own effort. 1. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Americans https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban_Americans
  - coldtea 8y ago
    >I'm not sure how a web comic from New Zealand is supposed to form an effective refutation in response to quantative data on academics in the United States. In case it wasn't clear I'm most talking about America. Let me clarify this part, then: the post is about nothing particular New Zealandish that's not also the case in the US. It has been reposted and recommended in American media so many times precisely because it is relevant in the US too. Furthermore, this is more than clear in the comic itself, which is told in a universal manner, and doesn't refer to any particular trait/habit/circumstance/factor of New Zealand life. If anything, it is more USA than New Zealand (which has much less inequality of the sort the comic criticizes). >Oppressed minorities have gotten themselves out of poverty by emphasizing hard work and education. I've already listed Jewish Americans and Asian Americans. Jewish and Asian Americans didn't have 400 years of being abducted from their countries and working to death as slaves in the USA. After the initial racism against them as newcomers subsided they were quickly tolerated. Blacks on the other had, had the contempt and the prejudice of their ex-owners and their children and grandchildren. They had started from less than 0, as they had their culture stolen from them in 400 years of slavery (as opposed to newer Jewish and Asian immigrants arriving with their old world cultures -- from "bar mitzvahs" and "delis", to "tiger moms"). Asians and Jews had their persecution up around the 40s or so, but they didn't have segregated schools, hotels, restaurants up to the late 60s. They didn't have to put up with redlining when looking for places to live (up to now). They don't have discrimination against them in white collar jobs still. They're not routinely killed without questions asked by cops in percentages unheard of for any western country police force (even accounting those countries total population, not just the black population).