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Why would they have "unambiguously" fallen into those categories? There's just this assumption that people who "look like that" don't listen to punk or metal, a

Why would they have "unambiguously" fallen into those categories? There's just this assumption that people who "look like that" don't listen to punk or metal, and it's just not true. People who listen to punk or metal can be young, white (I hate to harp on the white thing, it's just the way Wikipedia describes it), live in gentrified urban areas, buy clothes from the thrift store, buy vintage jackets. Lots of punks are vegan and live alternative lifestyles. All of those things are characteristics that supposedly identify someone as a hipster. If it seems like I'm cherry-picking, I'd ask how many of the characteristics need to be met for the categorization to be true. So I don't agree that they unambiguously fall into their own "punk" or "metalhead" categories. Maybe they self-identify as punk or metalhead, but that doesn't change the fact that the definition of hipster is so broad that their subcultures are a subset of it.

existencebox 8y ago
"Why would they have "unambiguously" fallen into those categories? " Pragmatically, because they often _wanted_ to and designed their personas intentionally. You seem to be arguing that visible signifiers of subcultures don't provide meaningful signal. I would disagree broadly, and specifically in that the I don't even consider "hipster" the "generic white dude." Beanies? plaid? At least where I grew up those were _very conscious statements_ and not just the median type of dress. As you say there are people who present as one thing who have tastes otherwise. I present nowadays as a metalhead but spend far more of my time listening to hip hop. But if someone called me a metalhead I'd probably go "there's some truth in that" and understand the connotations even if it's not 100%, and I see hipster similarly, whereas you seem to find it to have no signal whatsoever. The core of our difference seems to be whether "generic white dude" falls into hipster. I simply can't find that to be true. The aspects the wikipedia article call out, I've only found to be "norm" in places that would, again without malice, probably self-identify as "hipster", although there's a definite "grunge" overlap. (Seattle, Portland, Vermont, in my personal experience) My main point being, that does not even come close to describing the vast bulk of jeans wearing boring-tshirt-or-button down blue/white-collar loafer/sneaker wearing white dude that I've met over the course of my life. (And sanity checking myself with a glance down my 55 person teamroom :P) This may well end up being a "you live in a different bubble than I do" which I'm not about to argue or criticize. I just wanted to chime in from a music-nerd-often-accused-of-being-hipster's perspective; if only to speak for my friend group and myself, we find these terms to have inoffensive utility.

existencebox 8y ago

"Why would they have "unambiguously" fallen into those categories? " Pragmatically, because they often _wanted_ to and designed their personas intentionally. You seem to be arguing that visible signifiers of subcultures don't provide meaningful signal. I would disagree broadly, and specifically in that the I don't even consider "hipster" the "generic white dude." Beanies? plaid? At least where I grew up those were _very conscious statements_ and not just the median type of dress. As you say there are people who present as one thing who have tastes otherwise. I present nowadays as a metalhead but spend far more of my time listening to hip hop. But if someone called me a metalhead I'd probably go "there's some truth in that" and understand the connotations even if it's not 100%, and I see hipster similarly, whereas you seem to find it to have no signal whatsoever. The core of our difference seems to be whether "generic white dude" falls into hipster. I simply can't find that to be true. The aspects the wikipedia article call out, I've only found to be "norm" in places that would, again without malice, probably self-identify as "hipster", although there's a definite "grunge" overlap. (Seattle, Portland, Vermont, in my personal experience) My main point being, that does not even come close to describing the vast bulk of jeans wearing boring-tshirt-or-button down blue/white-collar loafer/sneaker wearing white dude that I've met over the course of my life. (And sanity checking myself with a glance down my 55 person teamroom :P) This may well end up being a "you live in a different bubble than I do" which I'm not about to argue or criticize. I just wanted to chime in from a music-nerd-often-accused-of-being-hipster's perspective; if only to speak for my friend group and myself, we find these terms to have inoffensive utility.