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If Cook really cares so much, why doesn’t he invest in internal training and mentorship programs? Where are all the entry-level new grad positions where a junio

If Cook really cares so much, why doesn’t he invest in internal training and mentorship programs? Where are all the entry-level new grad positions where a junior is paired with a senior? Where is the performance evaluation category for mentoring as a developer? These have all but disappeared in the modern job market. It used to be the company’s prerogative to train hires for their job. Now that is being outsourced to colleges, with the media and politicians helping them broadcast their cost-saving strategy. It’s sickening.

CoolGuySteve 8y ago
It’s not the same thing but maybe a compromise due to the scale involved: you can work your way up from the Apple Store into corporate without a college degree. “Geniuses” funnel into QA mostly while “Creatives” funnel into marketing and design. We did hire many, many interns too when I was there but they were from college programs.
- JJMcJ 8y ago
  > funnel into QA That is, the lowest paying and least respected "tech" jobs in the company.
  - sopooneo 8y ago
    I agree that QA typically don't get the prestige of development. But at my job we happen to have some QA people that are worth their weight in gold. And that is generally understood and respected by the dev teams here.
    - JJMcJ 8y ago
      Ask them what they get paid vs. the developers.
  - CoolGuySteve 8y ago
    1) QA at Apple can work their way into regular Engineering roles too. 2) The delta in salaries isn't much since Apple doesn't pay their engineers much compared to other companies in the valley in the first place.
3pt14159 8y ago
I've been coding for a long time. All that has changed is your perspective. It used to be that the "real" developers were working on "real" technology, like satellites and mainframes. This whole messy website muck was chided. So those companies hired people like me and trained them. I was 14 working nights, weekends, and summers. Now, the web is Serious. It has enough pro devs to make it nothing but a waste of time to drag along some high school kids. But there are still high school kids getting recruited, you're just not in the same low-standards part of the industry that they're in. Motivated kids these days are building weird shit in VR and hitting bug bounties. If anything it is not a problem of training and mentorship, it is a problem of getting people interested in programming in the first place. When I got my first computer at 4 years old I had to use a CLI to get around. Most of my games were in QBASIC and could be inspected and changed, which I would do when I was bored. It's harder to get the spark these days, but once it starts it is so much easier to learn than it used to be. I was struggling with pointer math at 10 years old. Kids these days use JavaScript and Swift.
- glitchc 8y ago
  If enough kids weren’t interested, the science and technology pipeline would dry up. Diversity in the stream may be an issue, but overall dearth is not currently a problem (used to be a much bigger problem in the past when computing was a less reputable industry). Does it really matter what the technology or application area is? Electricians train and apprentice, as do scientists (what a PhD and post-doc are after all). Given that you are a senior, do you feel these kids would not benefit from your mentorship? If so, does the organization you work at create opportunities for such mentorships? Do they count towards your promotion case?
awakeasleep 8y ago
This is also a huge part of the lie of "caring about diversity" large enterprises are trying to sell. Disadvantaged groups have less educational attainment. If you want a diverse workplace, you have to invest in training for people without the stanford/mit/etc background. Verbally recommitting to diversity at every all hands is some frustrating, cynical bullshit when the company expects recruiting to magically source diverse candidates who have the same credentials as people who grew up without institutional discrimination.
nikofeyn 8y ago
you have really nailed it on the head. this whole thing is just propaganda by tim cook and apple to continue to exert influence over university and high school education in order to outsource training and commoditize software engineers. in their mind, they just want universities, and now high schools, to start pumping out people ready to start writing software for them without any investment on apple's part. the more of these people, the more they can skim the cream off the top and keep wages low or lower. as you say, there are very few companies left that are willing to properly train smart employees who may not have the background they need. it is very disappointing. this furthers the STEM myth, and it negatively affects other fields. let's say someone is interested in history. how are they supposed to feel comfortable with their decision to study history in university, if they are basically unhirable (in today's climate and for no good reason) afterwards? there is even pressure on actual STEM fields to learn software as well. the number one suggestion for mathematicians looking for a job is "learn to code". companies won't even hire mathematicians who don't already know how to code. it's so silly that companies can't say, oh, this person dedicated a lot of time to learning something i would probably struggle to or not be able to learn, but i won't hire them because they don't already know how to code, and i don't want to train them. that is the STEM myth. universities should not be job mills, but u.s. corporations are doing everything they can to make them into that. university should be about exploration and learning and doing and not about how to land your future company's ideal job for you.

CoolGuySteve 8y ago

It’s not the same thing but maybe a compromise due to the scale involved: you can work your way up from the Apple Store into corporate without a college degree. “Geniuses” funnel into QA mostly while “Creatives” funnel into marketing and design. We did hire many, many interns too when I was there but they were from college programs.

JJMcJ 8y ago
> funnel into QA That is, the lowest paying and least respected "tech" jobs in the company.
- sopooneo 8y ago
  I agree that QA typically don't get the prestige of development. But at my job we happen to have some QA people that are worth their weight in gold. And that is generally understood and respected by the dev teams here.
  - JJMcJ 8y ago
    Ask them what they get paid vs. the developers.
- CoolGuySteve 8y ago
  1) QA at Apple can work their way into regular Engineering roles too. 2) The delta in salaries isn't much since Apple doesn't pay their engineers much compared to other companies in the valley in the first place.

3pt14159 8y ago

I've been coding for a long time. All that has changed is your perspective. It used to be that the "real" developers were working on "real" technology, like satellites and mainframes. This whole messy website muck was chided. So those companies hired people like me and trained them. I was 14 working nights, weekends, and summers. Now, the web is Serious. It has enough pro devs to make it nothing but a waste of time to drag along some high school kids. But there are still high school kids getting recruited, you're just not in the same low-standards part of the industry that they're in. Motivated kids these days are building weird shit in VR and hitting bug bounties. If anything it is not a problem of training and mentorship, it is a problem of getting people interested in programming in the first place. When I got my first computer at 4 years old I had to use a CLI to get around. Most of my games were in QBASIC and could be inspected and changed, which I would do when I was bored. It's harder to get the spark these days, but once it starts it is so much easier to learn than it used to be. I was struggling with pointer math at 10 years old. Kids these days use JavaScript and Swift.

glitchc 8y ago
If enough kids weren’t interested, the science and technology pipeline would dry up. Diversity in the stream may be an issue, but overall dearth is not currently a problem (used to be a much bigger problem in the past when computing was a less reputable industry). Does it really matter what the technology or application area is? Electricians train and apprentice, as do scientists (what a PhD and post-doc are after all). Given that you are a senior, do you feel these kids would not benefit from your mentorship? If so, does the organization you work at create opportunities for such mentorships? Do they count towards your promotion case?

awakeasleep 8y ago

This is also a huge part of the lie of "caring about diversity" large enterprises are trying to sell. Disadvantaged groups have less educational attainment. If you want a diverse workplace, you have to invest in training for people without the stanford/mit/etc background. Verbally recommitting to diversity at every all hands is some frustrating, cynical bullshit when the company expects recruiting to magically source diverse candidates who have the same credentials as people who grew up without institutional discrimination.

nikofeyn 8y ago

you have really nailed it on the head. this whole thing is just propaganda by tim cook and apple to continue to exert influence over university and high school education in order to outsource training and commoditize software engineers. in their mind, they just want universities, and now high schools, to start pumping out people ready to start writing software for them without any investment on apple's part. the more of these people, the more they can skim the cream off the top and keep wages low or lower. as you say, there are very few companies left that are willing to properly train smart employees who may not have the background they need. it is very disappointing. this furthers the STEM myth, and it negatively affects other fields. let's say someone is interested in history. how are they supposed to feel comfortable with their decision to study history in university, if they are basically unhirable (in today's climate and for no good reason) afterwards? there is even pressure on actual STEM fields to learn software as well. the number one suggestion for mathematicians looking for a job is "learn to code". companies won't even hire mathematicians who don't already know how to code. it's so silly that companies can't say, oh, this person dedicated a lot of time to learning something i would probably struggle to or not be able to learn, but i won't hire them because they don't already know how to code, and i don't want to train them. that is the STEM myth. universities should not be job mills, but u.s. corporations are doing everything they can to make them into that. university should be about exploration and learning and doing and not about how to land your future company's ideal job for you.