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Is breaking them up really a priority? What benefit would that have that we couldn't achieve via properly taxing and regulating them in the first place?

by thr_w 8y ago

rayvd 8y ago
Taxing and regulation stifles innovation, risk taking and productivity. It also encourages cronyism. I prefer breaking up monopolies if the end result will be a healthier, consumer-focused and competition driven market. Given that this is an Elizabeth Warren idea, I'm suspicious that the motives are anything having to do with creating a vibrant market... :)
chadmhorner 8y ago
I think the general theory is that if we allow them to continue getting bigger and swallowing up all potential competitors, we’re basically saying these four or five companies will run everything, forever.
- sct202 8y ago
  Also they've been hoovering up all the talent available they can get with fat salaries and stock grants.
- treis 8y ago
  I think that wildly overstates the influence these companies have. Amazon is trivial to avoid. Just don't shop there or at Whole Foods. Facebook is a bit trickier because you might be forced there by a social group and they have a huge web of trackers. Google is really the issue. They are dominant in search, browser, and maps, and they're half the mobile duopoly. It's very difficult to avoid using their products entirely and even if you did, their dominance allows them to dictate how the internet works, to a certain extent.
  - monetus 8y ago
    Avoiding Amazon would also mean avoiding all aws services, not letting your data hit their infrastructure.
  - thr_w 8y ago
    Not a huge disagreement here, but I think Facebook is completely trivial to avoid, while Amazon is much less so. I couldn't care less about Facebook. Yet, while I certainly could live without Amazon (or Whole Foods), their service is very nice and WF has things I can't buy at other grocery stores around me.
    - 908087 8y ago
      Good luck avoiding having your data collected by facebook via third parties, and good luck avoiding the effects it has on the society you live in.
b0bby_tabl3s 8y ago
They ARE being properly taxed. I guarantee you they are following the tax code, as it stands, to the letter. They employ teams of accountants to make sure they are. Corporations are not the problem. The tax code is. Plus, Elizabeth Warren is an idiot to boot, so..yeah, there is that. Regulation? What type are we talking? Something that makes someone who has a general disdain for successful companies 'feel better'? Be specific.
sebiol 8y ago
I guess by breaking them up, regulating and taxing them becomes easier, because the parts don't have the same power?
logicchains 8y ago
It would help give China a fairer chance in the AI race. Due to economies of scale and the sheer amount of resources they command, Facebook and Google are able to conduct research that would otherwise be incredibly expensive (e.g. training AlphaZero), and offer incredibly high salaries to lure in researchers. Apparently 80% of all machine learning engineers work at Google or Facebook! Breaking this concentration of machine learning research power would give companies like Baidu, Bytedance and Tencent, which were not broken up and which enjoy strong government support, the chance to catch up and maybe even overtake the remnants of Google/Facebook.
- dnissley 8y ago
  It would also give other companies in the US a better shot at the same goal. The focus on China seems unwarranted.
  - justaman 8y ago
    I don't think its fair to underestimate China. Breaking up Amazon or Google would benefit China more than the west. Sure Amazon and Google are possibly too large, but their Chinese counter parts are equally as large and direct competitors. The idea behind breaking these companies up is to encourage market competition but that competition already exists and will not be broken up in China. Somehow Warren always has the wrong solutions but is generally correct in identifying a problem.
    - craftyguy 8y ago
      > Breaking up Amazon or Google would benefit China more than the west China doesn't seem to be having any problems competing, and winning, against Google and Amazon. Baidu and Alibaba are huge.
  - logicchains 8y ago
    But presumably if other companies in the US got as powerful as Facebook/Google, they'd just be broken up too, for the same reasons, no? And if they weren't that big/powerful, they'd lack the economies of scale to do what Google and Facebook are doing now. So any other country with giant technology companies (which in practice right now is just China) would have an advantage.

Is breaking them up really a priority? What benefit would that have that we couldn't achieve via properly taxing and regulating them in the first place?

by thr_w 8y ago

Is breaking them up really a priority? What benefit would that have that we couldn't achieve via properly taxing and regulating them in the first place?

rayvd 8y ago

Taxing and regulation stifles innovation, risk taking and productivity. It also encourages cronyism. I prefer breaking up monopolies if the end result will be a healthier, consumer-focused and competition driven market. Given that this is an Elizabeth Warren idea, I'm suspicious that the motives are anything having to do with creating a vibrant market... :)

chadmhorner 8y ago

I think the general theory is that if we allow them to continue getting bigger and swallowing up all potential competitors, we’re basically saying these four or five companies will run everything, forever.

sct202 8y ago
Also they've been hoovering up all the talent available they can get with fat salaries and stock grants.
treis 8y ago
I think that wildly overstates the influence these companies have. Amazon is trivial to avoid. Just don't shop there or at Whole Foods. Facebook is a bit trickier because you might be forced there by a social group and they have a huge web of trackers. Google is really the issue. They are dominant in search, browser, and maps, and they're half the mobile duopoly. It's very difficult to avoid using their products entirely and even if you did, their dominance allows them to dictate how the internet works, to a certain extent.
- monetus 8y ago
  Avoiding Amazon would also mean avoiding all aws services, not letting your data hit their infrastructure.
- thr_w 8y ago
  Not a huge disagreement here, but I think Facebook is completely trivial to avoid, while Amazon is much less so. I couldn't care less about Facebook. Yet, while I certainly could live without Amazon (or Whole Foods), their service is very nice and WF has things I can't buy at other grocery stores around me.
  - 908087 8y ago
    Good luck avoiding having your data collected by facebook via third parties, and good luck avoiding the effects it has on the society you live in.

b0bby_tabl3s 8y ago

They ARE being properly taxed. I guarantee you they are following the tax code, as it stands, to the letter. They employ teams of accountants to make sure they are. Corporations are not the problem. The tax code is. Plus, Elizabeth Warren is an idiot to boot, so..yeah, there is that. Regulation? What type are we talking? Something that makes someone who has a general disdain for successful companies 'feel better'? Be specific.

sebiol 8y ago

I guess by breaking them up, regulating and taxing them becomes easier, because the parts don't have the same power?

logicchains 8y ago

It would help give China a fairer chance in the AI race. Due to economies of scale and the sheer amount of resources they command, Facebook and Google are able to conduct research that would otherwise be incredibly expensive (e.g. training AlphaZero), and offer incredibly high salaries to lure in researchers. Apparently 80% of all machine learning engineers work at Google or Facebook! Breaking this concentration of machine learning research power would give companies like Baidu, Bytedance and Tencent, which were not broken up and which enjoy strong government support, the chance to catch up and maybe even overtake the remnants of Google/Facebook.

dnissley 8y ago
It would also give other companies in the US a better shot at the same goal. The focus on China seems unwarranted.
- justaman 8y ago
  I don't think its fair to underestimate China. Breaking up Amazon or Google would benefit China more than the west. Sure Amazon and Google are possibly too large, but their Chinese counter parts are equally as large and direct competitors. The idea behind breaking these companies up is to encourage market competition but that competition already exists and will not be broken up in China. Somehow Warren always has the wrong solutions but is generally correct in identifying a problem.
  - craftyguy 8y ago
    > Breaking up Amazon or Google would benefit China more than the west China doesn't seem to be having any problems competing, and winning, against Google and Amazon. Baidu and Alibaba are huge.
- logicchains 8y ago
  But presumably if other companies in the US got as powerful as Facebook/Google, they'd just be broken up too, for the same reasons, no? And if they weren't that big/powerful, they'd lack the economies of scale to do what Google and Facebook are doing now. So any other country with giant technology companies (which in practice right now is just China) would have an advantage.