7 ms·
Articles like this ignore the impact on individuals. For every group that is trying to full time Uber/Lyft or turn an AirBNB into a hotel, there's also tons of
by jeffbax 8y ago
Articles like this ignore the impact on individuals. For every group that is trying to full time Uber/Lyft or turn an AirBNB into a hotel, there's also tons of people who are doing in the spare time to make some extra or work the better allocation of resources into something beneficial for them.
See threads like: https://twitter.com/RantyAmyCurtis/status/1102721361905106945 https://twitter.com/RantyAmyCurtis/status/110272136190510694...
That's what sharing is about, more optimal allocation/usage. It's not an end-all solution to everything, it's a supplement. There will be people who make their entire go at it, and there will be everything in between.
The importance is that you let people decide whether to participate in it or not. They're the ones with which the decision of whether it is a scam or not ultimately matters.
Trying to paint the entire phenomenon as either a total failure or the end-all panacea is dumb. It's a much welcome addition to the broader economy by millions of people.
- bobthepanda 8y agoAllowing people to participate in activities is useful, but that assumes that they are well-informed and rational. People also willingly participate in multi-level marketing; that doesn’t mean it’s good for them and society to do so.
- wallace_f 8y agoAnd people will also abuse drugs if decriminalized; it doesn't mean prohibition of even such inherently dangerous activities is making things better
- bobthepanda 8y agoThere’s a middle ground, and it’s called regulation. Of course, the ridesharing companies will holler and cry uncle about even the most basic regulations (see: Austin and fingerprinting.) New York recently made moves to, among other things, establish a floor wage for rideshare drivers similar to how there is a minimum wage for tipped workers.
- agent008t 8y agoHow about letting people opt out? Ban things that we have good reasons to believe are harmful for people (or sign them up by default for things we believe are beneficial for them), but allow people to opt out by submitting some document that basically says "I know what I am doing is likely bad for me but I accept the risks"? This way you both protect people from their own irrationality and maximize liberty.
- bobthepanda 8y agoWhat is the value of informed consent from an irrational or desperate person? The vast majority of people do not read lengthy forms; GDPR updated notification requirements to reflect that. Restricting irrational behavior to limit damage to society is not new; that’s why we regulate things like usurious payday loans. One person being irrational is not dangerous, but many people being irrational is. The Great Depression started from the fallout of everyday people mortgaging their house and their car because the stock market was advertised as guranteed returns.
- djakjxnanjak 8y agoI think the right policy response to multi-level marketing and ride sharing is the same - aggressively regulate dishonest recruitment. Use a “consumer protection” mindset because a proper employer-employee relationship does not exist.
- TeMPOraL 8y agoMLMs makes participants scam other people, so IMO they should be burned to the ground. As for "sharing economy" & drugs and - banning them outright may not be a good idea, but it sure would be best if working for Uber came with Surgeon's General warning.
- Pristina 8y agoSo if I don't scam people, do MLMs whip me or something? How do they 'make' me?
- AstralStorm 8y agoYou do not get contracts, referrals, benefits, other cult business.
- hn_throwaway_99 8y agoThere's a lot that I agree with in your post and in that thread, but this in particular I take issue with: > One poinI have no idea what orifice @AOC pulled the$3.37 number from, but it’s wrong at best or intentionally deceptive at worst. I never made less than $10/hour and usually made $15-$45 an hour. And this was BEFORE Uber allowed tipping via the app. This woman is clearly not taking her expenses into account when calculating her income, and there lies the rub - in one way Uber is taking advantage of people's poor ability to do math. If you are a short/part-time driver, the increased depreciation and maintenance costs are probably not that visible to you, but for folks who drive more regularly they absolutely need to be factored in to your income calculations. A good treatment of the topic: https://www.ridester.com/uber-lyft-driver-costs-and-expenses/ https://www.ridester.com/uber-lyft-driver-costs-and-expenses...
- gmmeyer 8y agoIt was a study that was retracted: https://qz.com/1222744/mits-uber-study-couldnt-possibly-have-been-right-it-was-still-important/ https://qz.com/1222744/mits-uber-study-couldnt-possibly-have... She probably never heard about the retraction, it got a lot less press than the original study
- antpls 8y agoWell, if you were better at math, you wouldn't give your free time to post content on HN, would you ? As soon as you talk about future costs, different people have different believes and different bets, because they have different risk profiles Edit : why is my comment flagged?
- PostOnce 8y agoWell, it's not hard to imagine a future in which a majority of labor is "just in time" and people all have 6 different part-time gigs going concurrently, taking whichever job notification pops up next on their phone. Optimal for profit margins for a single company, but at what cost to society as a whole?
- Pristina 8y agothis would only work for unskilled workers. although being a doctor, you only work when there are patients. so that's JIT too i guess.
- random_kris 8y agowhat about a quality of those services? a full time driver drives much better than someone who does 4 different gigs part time
- trimbo 8y ago> That's what sharing is about, more optimal allocation/usage. It's not an end-all solution to everything, it's a supplement. Do you think that drives down the wages of the people who need to do it as their main source of income?
- ACow_Adonis 8y agoWell, that's what basic economic theory would predict, so I'd argue you'd need to have a pretty robust and demonstrated reason to conclude that it wouldn't. You've first got the general increasing in the supply of labour, but then you've got a secondary effect considering the lowering of barriers to people who consider car ownership a sunk cost and not connected directly and solely to using the vehicle for income-production introducing a very low marginal rate for some of that supply...
- smadge 8y agoI think that twitter story is an example of the financially precarious position many workers are in. It only supports the idea that our economy is fundamentally unfair to working people. How is it acceptable that a mother of three going to nursing school has to support herself and her family through contributions from friends and family, multiple part time jobs, and driving for Uber? Going to school and raising a family is a full time commitment in itself.
- ksec 8y agoIncoming Unpopular opinion. I had a somewhat similar discussion, and it turns out many people from different origins and Culture think differently. And hence why politics are complicated. In America that would be considered as hard working American. Some are proud ( until the hard cold market reality got in to their end I suppose ) and they don't even think there is anything wrong with it. In Europe, that would be considered as Market and Companies taking unfair advantage over its citizen on labours. And should be condemned as evil and greed. Then this often leads to discussion of US with little regulation, and comparatively EU with many regulations. The hardest problem to solve are problem that many don't seen it as a problem. In the case most Uber drivers in US don't seems to be having an issues with Uber.
- smadge 8y agoI agree. If Uber drivers view themselves as individuals acting rationally to maximize their material conditions in an environment they can't alter, then why would they have issues with Uber? If driving for Uber wasn't a net positive over not driving for Uber, they wouldn't be Uber drivers. But they can and should alter the economic environment they exist in, through politics and labor organizing. The median cut Uber takes from drivers is 40%. This is before accounting for vehicle fuel, insurance, and maintenance. Presumably some percentage of the cut is necessary to develop and maintain the application infrastructure, but clearly not that much. I imagine most Americans would be furious if the government instituted a 40% flat tax on their income, but within the individualist mindset it is seen as inevitable and they accept it.
- 8y ago
- _bxg1 8y agoThe problem is, in its current state, it creates monopolies which undercut the non-gig versions of those jobs, eventually blotting them out. And then the people doing them are left doing the same thing, generally for less pay, with little stability and no benefits (thank you, American health care system). I tend to favor the perspective that the problem isn't tech but venture capitalists, and more directly the government that refuses to (or is too slow to) regulate all of this. It's the same old tricks people have been trying for 200 years of industry; anticompetitiveness, taking advantage of desperate labor, etc. The difference is that right now: 1) The markets can move (and even be created from scratch) so fast as to evade regulatory updates 2) They can dress it all up in flowery utopian language That's a dangerous combination.
- arcturus17 8y agoWhat about those of us who do not wish to take in any of this and still pay the consequences? In Madrid rent is up a staggering 17% YoY, mostly due to AirBnB. That affects anyone looking for an apartment and I’m sure if renters were to pick between having AirBnB available for their travels - which is eye-wateringly expensive anyway! - or cheaper rent, they will invariably pick the latter.
- razorbladeknife 8y agoSome party will always be at loss and market will decide which one. Just stop traveling to Madrid after all not everyone is entitled to invade life of locals and make their place crowded.
- Pristina 8y agoYou are not entitled to live in a particular city at a particular price. If a property owner can make 17% more, why should they make 17% less so YOU are more convenieced?
- xondono 8y agoMadrid, like Barcelona, has rising rent prices but blaiming them on AirBnB like some politicians have is very disingenuous. AirBnB and similar players have a small percentage of the rent stock. They can only shift prices on the margin. If you want the real culprits, Spain has a broken rental law that increases risks both for renters and lenders, and both cities have strict construction limiting codes (i.e. almost fixed supply).
- harperlee 8y agoThis 100%. In addition, if you want to look into new factors, the huge amounts of foreign investments that came into Madrid have been dedicated to normal rentals, or to hoarding empty flats; not to short term rentals.
- xondono 8y agoForeign or national, the fact is that Spain suffered a housing bubble and it’s burst, but all of the legal and political conditions that gave rise to the bubble are still there. Add the negative interest rates of the BCE, and you have found a nice way to make a killing...
- octonion 8y agoI have nearly everyone in that Twitter thread blocked and labeled as political propaganda trolls. I suggest you be more critical of your information sources.
- addicted 8y agoAll those individuals are doing is picking up jobs without job protections. Further, they are taking on a lot of costs that taxi services would do in the past, that further erode the actual money they are making. It’s not a sharing economy. It’s a temp economy. And highly underpaid and unprotected temp economy.
- jeffbax 8y agoIf anyone is interested further, this is a great EconTalk on sharing: http://www.econtalk.org/michael-munger-on-sharing-transaction-costs-and-tomorrow-3-0/ http://www.econtalk.org/michael-munger-on-sharing-transactio... TL,DR: Why do we all buy an electric drill to put up 4 screws in 30 seconds? Sharing/renting can be much more productive than everyone buying things themselves.