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I enjoy cashless stores. A few bars in Seattle are card only and it’s a lot more efficient. I understand that there is potential impact to low income people who

I enjoy cashless stores. A few bars in Seattle are card only and it’s a lot more efficient. I understand that there is potential impact to low income people who don’t have credit but isn’t it kind of up to the store owner to decide what they want to accept?

rchaud 8y ago
The store owner agrees to abide by the laws of the city at the time they sign their articles of incorporation, or their business license. If they want to do cashless, they're free to talk to their political representatives about it, or go online-only.
- SilasX 8y ago
  I know it's cliche, what I'm about to do, but your comment is unhelpful enough to merit it. "The store owner agrees to adhere to the Jim Crow laws at the time they sign their articles of incorporation, or their business licenses. If they want to serve black and white people in the same space, they're free to talk their political representatives about it, or operate in a different jurisdiction." Repeating that the law is the law is not a productive contribution to a discussion about the merit of the laws.
  - rchaud 8y ago
    Interesting that you chose to reference Jim Crow to contextualize a law explicitly designed to not restrict access to services because of the form of legal tender you carry. In a city where 26pct live in poverty and may not have access to banking services, such a law is about as no-brainer as it gets. Laws attempt to balance the interests of the individual with those of the community, and can be influenced by the participation of the community. Jim Crow lasted as long as it did because the people that it harmed never got a vote. For such a law to be unjust, you'll have to show some evidence of people being negatively affected by it. The only counterpoints offered by the article are concerns from Amazon, about a store that does not even exist in Philly yet.
    - SilasX 8y ago
      Do you see the difference between the argument you just made and your original comment?
      - rchaud 8y ago
        I don't. This is not some obscure by-law from decades ago that a businessperson wouldn't be reasonably expected to know. I imagine a businessperson would already know what their cash policy would be prior to applying for a business license. Businesses continue to have the right to refuse service to anyone. Just don't tell them it's because they brought cash. I don't recall Jim Crow laws having such loopholes. The upscale cashless places mentioned in the article already have most if not all of their customers using credit cards, so this law won't be losing them any customers. Although as the article says, their cashiers may have to learn how to add and subtract change every now and then.
        SilasX 8y ago
        Really? You honestly don't see the difference between "you had to agree to that law to operate your business" and "here is a reason that the law is a good idea"? Or the similarity between "you can just do sales online if you don't like the laws, therefore there is no problem here whatsoever" and "you can just operate in a different jurisdiction, therefore there is not problem here whatsoever"? Then ... I don't think there can be any real meeting of the minds on this :-/
hocuspocus 8y ago
> low income people who don’t have credit I know that banking in the US is both weird and antiquated compared to the rest of the developed world, and I also know that the unbanked population is relatively high, but surely most low-income people can own a debit card and pay without cash, no?
- travisjungroth 8y ago
  Most can, lots can. "Unbanked" is a real problem.
- maemilius 8y ago
  Might depend on where you are. With the exception of Food Stamps, pretty much every transaction I've seen from lower income people in my area is cash based. I usually feel like an outsider since I generally carry no cash in an area where it feels like everyone pays for everything with cash.
marssaxman 8y ago
There's a ramen shop in Seattle that won't accept cash anymore, and that always leaves me feeling uncomfortable. What's wrong with real money? Why should we all be dependent on banks to mediate our transactions? I haven't stopped going to that ramen shop, and I often pay for things with a debit card anyway, but it feels wrong not to have the option to use cash.
- berbec 8y ago
  I went to get a coffee at a random shop in SOHO. When I took out a $20, they said they didn't take cash. I left immediately.
dragonwriter 8y ago
> isn’t it kind of up to the store owner to decide what they want to accept? Yes, and it's up to the community what kind of business practices to accept.

rchaud 8y ago

The store owner agrees to abide by the laws of the city at the time they sign their articles of incorporation, or their business license. If they want to do cashless, they're free to talk to their political representatives about it, or go online-only.

SilasX 8y ago
I know it's cliche, what I'm about to do, but your comment is unhelpful enough to merit it. "The store owner agrees to adhere to the Jim Crow laws at the time they sign their articles of incorporation, or their business licenses. If they want to serve black and white people in the same space, they're free to talk their political representatives about it, or operate in a different jurisdiction." Repeating that the law is the law is not a productive contribution to a discussion about the merit of the laws.
- rchaud 8y ago
  Interesting that you chose to reference Jim Crow to contextualize a law explicitly designed to not restrict access to services because of the form of legal tender you carry. In a city where 26pct live in poverty and may not have access to banking services, such a law is about as no-brainer as it gets. Laws attempt to balance the interests of the individual with those of the community, and can be influenced by the participation of the community. Jim Crow lasted as long as it did because the people that it harmed never got a vote. For such a law to be unjust, you'll have to show some evidence of people being negatively affected by it. The only counterpoints offered by the article are concerns from Amazon, about a store that does not even exist in Philly yet.
  - SilasX 8y ago
    Do you see the difference between the argument you just made and your original comment?
    - rchaud 8y ago
      I don't. This is not some obscure by-law from decades ago that a businessperson wouldn't be reasonably expected to know. I imagine a businessperson would already know what their cash policy would be prior to applying for a business license. Businesses continue to have the right to refuse service to anyone. Just don't tell them it's because they brought cash. I don't recall Jim Crow laws having such loopholes. The upscale cashless places mentioned in the article already have most if not all of their customers using credit cards, so this law won't be losing them any customers. Although as the article says, their cashiers may have to learn how to add and subtract change every now and then.
      - SilasX 8y ago
        Really? You honestly don't see the difference between "you had to agree to that law to operate your business" and "here is a reason that the law is a good idea"? Or the similarity between "you can just do sales online if you don't like the laws, therefore there is no problem here whatsoever" and "you can just operate in a different jurisdiction, therefore there is not problem here whatsoever"? Then ... I don't think there can be any real meeting of the minds on this :-/

hocuspocus 8y ago

> low income people who don’t have credit I know that banking in the US is both weird and antiquated compared to the rest of the developed world, and I also know that the unbanked population is relatively high, but surely most low-income people can own a debit card and pay without cash, no?

travisjungroth 8y ago
Most can, lots can. "Unbanked" is a real problem.
maemilius 8y ago
Might depend on where you are. With the exception of Food Stamps, pretty much every transaction I've seen from lower income people in my area is cash based. I usually feel like an outsider since I generally carry no cash in an area where it feels like everyone pays for everything with cash.

marssaxman 8y ago

There's a ramen shop in Seattle that won't accept cash anymore, and that always leaves me feeling uncomfortable. What's wrong with real money? Why should we all be dependent on banks to mediate our transactions? I haven't stopped going to that ramen shop, and I often pay for things with a debit card anyway, but it feels wrong not to have the option to use cash.

berbec 8y ago
I went to get a coffee at a random shop in SOHO. When I took out a $20, they said they didn't take cash. I left immediately.

dragonwriter 8y ago

> isn’t it kind of up to the store owner to decide what they want to accept? Yes, and it's up to the community what kind of business practices to accept.