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>and then he starts throwing out blatantly false strawmen like "then you get to 'men are bad' and 'whites are bad'" These are sincerely held beliefs increasing

>and then he starts throwing out blatantly false strawmen like "then you get to 'men are bad' and 'whites are bad'" These are sincerely held beliefs increasing in popularity around the world. Take, for example, the evergreen state college controversy in the USA where black people decided white people shouldnt come to college one day. Governmental and corporate boards are increasingly forcefully including women to achieve "equal" representation, regardless of measured abilities.

krapp 8y ago
>Take, for example, the evergreen state college controversy in the USA where black people decided white people shouldnt come to college one day. That's not exactly what happened[0], and it wasn't because "black people" believed "whites are bad." And... attempting to extrapolate from a single data point into some global anti-white belief is absurd to say the least. If anything, the global rise in populism, anti-feminist and anti immigrant sentiment points to the opposite trend. >Governmental and corporate boards are increasingly forcefully including women to achieve "equal" representation, regardless of measured abilities. Attempting to correct systemic gender bias is not an expression of a belief that "men are bad". One can argue about the effectiveness or fairness of such programs but you're being purposely disingenuous as to their nature and rationale. [0]https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2018/02/22/evergreen-state-cancels-day-absence-set-series-protests-and-controversies https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2018/02/22/evergreen-sta...
- chihuahua 8y ago
  The article you cite says that's exactly what happened: > Last year, organizers said that on the Day of Absence, they wanted white people to stay off campus.
  - krapp 8y ago
    >The article you cite says that's exactly what happened: Nowhere in that article does it claim that black people wanted white people off campus because they hate white people.
    - kryogen1c 8y ago
      > >The article you cite says that's exactly what happened: > Nowhere in that article does it claim that black people wanted white people off campus because they hate white people. neither i nor the person you replied to claimed black people hate white people.
- kryogen1c 8y ago
  > >Take, for example, > And... attempting to extrapolate from a single data point Im not extrapolating from a single data point. I said "for example", and then gave an example. Here are some more: https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/heres-the-full-recording-of-wilfrid-laurier-reprimanding-lindsay-shepherd-for-showing-a-jordan-peterson-video https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/heres-the-full-recordin... https://www.chronicle.com/article/What-the-Grievance/244753 https://www.chronicle.com/article/What-the-Grievance/244753 > If anything, the global rise in populism, anti-feminist and anti immigrant sentiment points to the opposite trend. I am not aware of any such sentiments. Have any data points? > >Governmental and corporate boards are increasingly forcefully including women to achieve "equal" representation, regardless of measured abilities. > Attempting to correct systemic gender bias is not an expression of a belief that "men are bad". This is begging the question. I do not accept your premise that systemic gender bias exists, and even if I did im sure we would disagree about the extent that it does. Gender differences exist individually and statistically across populations. There is no reason gender outcomes should be equal in all, or even most, cases. Your argument is that there exists a _global_ system disciriminating against race and gender?
  - krapp 8y ago
    It's not my premise. I can accept the latter can be reasonably argued, but that systemic gender bias doesn't even exist? >>If anything, the global rise in populism, anti-feminist and anti immigrant sentiment points to the opposite trend. >I am not aware of any such sentiments. Have any data points? You want me to provide "data points" on populism, the alt-right, MRAs and neo-reactionists, the xenophobia resulting from Syrian refugees into Europe and Mexican immigrants into the US, the narrative of the rural white male feeling isolated and alienated by a multicultural society which apparently led to Trump's election, and that campaign's unprecedented support by white nationalists? No, I'm not wasting my time litigating that. If you've been completely unaware of the existence of these social and political trends, you can do your own research. At this point that's like asking someone to first prove the that the earth is round before they'll even discuss transportation safety. I can tell this is not going to lead anywhere constructive, so I'm bowing out.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
Zimahl 8y ago
> Take, for example, the evergreen state college Why take that as an example? That college is hardly mainstream even for liberals, it's at the extreme end of liberal institutions. When weird shit happens there the only ones who care are people who just need a counter-argument to their terrible point.
- 0815test 8y ago
  When weird sh!t happens at the extreme end of liberal/conservative institutions, it tends to spread to the nominally-not-so-extreme liberal/conservative institutions. Evergreen may well be a leading indicator.
  - Zimahl 8y ago
    It's not. TESC has been this way for a long time, it's nothing new to the people of WA. I'm 42 and went to a public university in the state, we all knew what TESC was back then, everyone who went there and goes there knows what they are getting in to. It's certainly not shaping attitudes at other universities.
    - 0815test 8y ago
      And this would be entirely convincing, were we living in 'normal' times in the first place. But the whole point that Haidt's article is drawing from is that the level of political factionalization nation-wide is quite unprecedented, at least in recent memory. For freak's sake, Donald Trump is POTUS in case you haven't noticed! Something that The Simpsons used to joke about as obviously crazy and ludicrous! People like to talk about the toxic tendencies on the left (the so-called "SJW's"), but that's hardly the one and only sort of craziness we're experiencing nowadays.
      - kryogen1c 8y ago
        > And this would be entirely convincing, were we living in 'normal' times in the first place. To further debunk the "business as usual" argument, take a look a TESC enrollment numbers since the controversy from their own website: https://www.evergreen.edu/sites/default/files/Admission%20HX%2082-18.pdf https://www.evergreen.edu/sites/default/files/Admission%20HX... I dont know if "freefall" is exactly accurate, but theyre down like 40% from 2017 to 2018

krapp 8y ago

>Take, for example, the evergreen state college controversy in the USA where black people decided white people shouldnt come to college one day. That's not exactly what happened[0], and it wasn't because "black people" believed "whites are bad." And... attempting to extrapolate from a single data point into some global anti-white belief is absurd to say the least. If anything, the global rise in populism, anti-feminist and anti immigrant sentiment points to the opposite trend. >Governmental and corporate boards are increasingly forcefully including women to achieve "equal" representation, regardless of measured abilities. Attempting to correct systemic gender bias is not an expression of a belief that "men are bad". One can argue about the effectiveness or fairness of such programs but you're being purposely disingenuous as to their nature and rationale. [0]https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2018/02/22/evergreen-state-cancels-day-absence-set-series-protests-and-controversies https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2018/02/22/evergreen-sta...

chihuahua 8y ago
The article you cite says that's exactly what happened: > Last year, organizers said that on the Day of Absence, they wanted white people to stay off campus.
- krapp 8y ago
  >The article you cite says that's exactly what happened: Nowhere in that article does it claim that black people wanted white people off campus because they hate white people.
  - kryogen1c 8y ago
    > >The article you cite says that's exactly what happened: > Nowhere in that article does it claim that black people wanted white people off campus because they hate white people. neither i nor the person you replied to claimed black people hate white people.
kryogen1c 8y ago
> >Take, for example, > And... attempting to extrapolate from a single data point Im not extrapolating from a single data point. I said "for example", and then gave an example. Here are some more: https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/heres-the-full-recording-of-wilfrid-laurier-reprimanding-lindsay-shepherd-for-showing-a-jordan-peterson-video https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/heres-the-full-recordin... https://www.chronicle.com/article/What-the-Grievance/244753 https://www.chronicle.com/article/What-the-Grievance/244753 > If anything, the global rise in populism, anti-feminist and anti immigrant sentiment points to the opposite trend. I am not aware of any such sentiments. Have any data points? > >Governmental and corporate boards are increasingly forcefully including women to achieve "equal" representation, regardless of measured abilities. > Attempting to correct systemic gender bias is not an expression of a belief that "men are bad". This is begging the question. I do not accept your premise that systemic gender bias exists, and even if I did im sure we would disagree about the extent that it does. Gender differences exist individually and statistically across populations. There is no reason gender outcomes should be equal in all, or even most, cases. Your argument is that there exists a _global_ system disciriminating against race and gender?
- krapp 8y ago
  It's not my premise. I can accept the latter can be reasonably argued, but that systemic gender bias doesn't even exist? >>If anything, the global rise in populism, anti-feminist and anti immigrant sentiment points to the opposite trend. >I am not aware of any such sentiments. Have any data points? You want me to provide "data points" on populism, the alt-right, MRAs and neo-reactionists, the xenophobia resulting from Syrian refugees into Europe and Mexican immigrants into the US, the narrative of the rural white male feeling isolated and alienated by a multicultural society which apparently led to Trump's election, and that campaign's unprecedented support by white nationalists? No, I'm not wasting my time litigating that. If you've been completely unaware of the existence of these social and political trends, you can do your own research. At this point that's like asking someone to first prove the that the earth is round before they'll even discuss transportation safety. I can tell this is not going to lead anywhere constructive, so I'm bowing out.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

Zimahl 8y ago

> Take, for example, the evergreen state college Why take that as an example? That college is hardly mainstream even for liberals, it's at the extreme end of liberal institutions. When weird shit happens there the only ones who care are people who just need a counter-argument to their terrible point.

0815test 8y ago
When weird sh!t happens at the extreme end of liberal/conservative institutions, it tends to spread to the nominally-not-so-extreme liberal/conservative institutions. Evergreen may well be a leading indicator.
- Zimahl 8y ago
  It's not. TESC has been this way for a long time, it's nothing new to the people of WA. I'm 42 and went to a public university in the state, we all knew what TESC was back then, everyone who went there and goes there knows what they are getting in to. It's certainly not shaping attitudes at other universities.
  - 0815test 8y ago
    And this would be entirely convincing, were we living in 'normal' times in the first place. But the whole point that Haidt's article is drawing from is that the level of political factionalization nation-wide is quite unprecedented, at least in recent memory. For freak's sake, Donald Trump is POTUS in case you haven't noticed! Something that The Simpsons used to joke about as obviously crazy and ludicrous! People like to talk about the toxic tendencies on the left (the so-called "SJW's"), but that's hardly the one and only sort of craziness we're experiencing nowadays.
    - kryogen1c 8y ago
      > And this would be entirely convincing, were we living in 'normal' times in the first place. To further debunk the "business as usual" argument, take a look a TESC enrollment numbers since the controversy from their own website: https://www.evergreen.edu/sites/default/files/Admission%20HX%2082-18.pdf https://www.evergreen.edu/sites/default/files/Admission%20HX... I dont know if "freefall" is exactly accurate, but theyre down like 40% from 2017 to 2018