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Subconscious bias means your concern is applicable regardless of your skin color or gender. If you’re a white male, you could easily have been hired simply beca

Subconscious bias means your concern is applicable regardless of your skin color or gender. If you’re a white male, you could easily have been hired simply because of your skin color and gender and not your abilities. Effectively, your point is moot. Maybe worry less about the thoughts and feelings of who hired you and focus on doing your best work.

malvosenior 8y ago
As an under represented minority in tech, I couldn't agree more with the parent post. I never want to bring up my race because I want to be judged on the output of my skills and not be propped up because someone thinks I add diversity points to the team. Sadly I've had to bring up my genetic background recently as a pure survival mechanism because people keep telling me to my face that they don't want to hire white men so I need to let them know I'm not white so I don't get instantly filtered out. The whole situation is ridiculous as I never had any problems with my race before "diversity" became talking point #1 (as a developer, raising money is another story).
- OpieCunningham 8y ago
  I could be misunderstanding what you are stating, but it sounds like you are saying that when you were mistaken for white, and diversity practices did not exist, everything was good. But now that diversity practices exist, you need to preemptively point out that you are not white. Now that the conscious or subconscious race pre-determinant is shifting from "this person is white, ergo good" to "this is a person of color, ergo good", you are finding you benefit from clarifying that you fit the latter category, even if it appears as though you fit the former. This may be a "best of both worlds" situation for you. In any case, diversity hiring may mean that you will be excluded because you are mistaken for white - but that doesn't mean whomever you were excluded for wasn't more qualified than you.
  - malvosenior 8y ago
    I don't like it because I find the judging people based on their skin color extremely racist, yet I'm forced to support it due to the need to put food on the table. > diversity hiring may mean that you will be excluded because you are mistaken for white I consider this racism and it pains me to to have to play the game of the people committing it.
mamurphy 8y ago
>If you’re a white male, you could easily have been hired simply because of your skin color and gender and not your abilities. This may have been the case decade(s) ago, but I think the climate is very different now. With the prevalence of social "justice" hiring policies, I'd be much more confident I was hired because of ability, rather than to fill a quota, as a white male than any other race/sex combination. Sadly, affirmative action creates "mismatch" that often worsens the problem it is trying to solve. Minorities are highly recruited to fill quotas, even if less capable. This (1) puts them in over their head setting them up to fail and (2) creates a perception that the minorities are inherently less qualified (rather than the truth, that they are being over-selected for). One of many articles on this topic: https://www.nationalaffairs.com/publications/detail/the-sad-irony-of-affirmative-action https://www.nationalaffairs.com/publications/detail/the-sad-...
- OpieCunningham 8y ago
  > This may have been the case decade(s) ago, but I think the climate is very different now. I don't. I've met many incompetent white males in over their heads.
  - fiblye 8y ago
    I’ve met many incompetent people who don’t belong at their job. Race and gender isn’t related.
    - OpieCunningham 8y ago
      Good. Then we're in agreement that hiring for diversity is of no detriment. Incompetent white people are hired because of subconscious bias and incompetent people of color are hired because of diversity goals. We've achieved equality.
      - fiblye 8y ago
        I think anyone who hires purely for race or appearance or physical diversity is absolutely incompetent. Having a fully conscious bias that intentionally hiring people physically different from you just because they’re physically different is pure, undiluted incompetence at the highest level and absolutely against equality since it gives preference to specific groups. In that sense, yes, we’re in full agreement and you intentionally warping my obvious meaning to guilt me into your line of thought won’t work.
AlexTWithBeard 8y ago
Subconscious bias may or may not take place in a specific case. Interviewer's bias can be with regards to race, sex, hair color, nationality, accent, physical fitness and so on. We may keep arguing about which if them plays higher role in me being hired. HR policies, on the other hand, is an objective reality with a measurable outcome.
- OpieCunningham 8y ago
  In a specific case, certainly. In the general case, subconscious bias plays a role. It doesn’t seem like a real argument that, generally speaking it is unknown whether race or gender bias is more of a determinant in hiring decisions than hair color bias. Is that an argument you consider rational? HR policies do have measurable outcomes. It's a question of what you think those measurements describe. A diversity hiring HR policy is a counter-action to the existing subconscious bias favoring white men, and a long term effort to squelch subconscious bias favoring white men by increasing exposure to diverse races/genders. Let's collect some long term data and analyze the result measurements, instead of pretending subconscious bias favoring white men doesn't exist.

malvosenior 8y ago

As an under represented minority in tech, I couldn't agree more with the parent post. I never want to bring up my race because I want to be judged on the output of my skills and not be propped up because someone thinks I add diversity points to the team. Sadly I've had to bring up my genetic background recently as a pure survival mechanism because people keep telling me to my face that they don't want to hire white men so I need to let them know I'm not white so I don't get instantly filtered out. The whole situation is ridiculous as I never had any problems with my race before "diversity" became talking point #1 (as a developer, raising money is another story).

OpieCunningham 8y ago
I could be misunderstanding what you are stating, but it sounds like you are saying that when you were mistaken for white, and diversity practices did not exist, everything was good. But now that diversity practices exist, you need to preemptively point out that you are not white. Now that the conscious or subconscious race pre-determinant is shifting from "this person is white, ergo good" to "this is a person of color, ergo good", you are finding you benefit from clarifying that you fit the latter category, even if it appears as though you fit the former. This may be a "best of both worlds" situation for you. In any case, diversity hiring may mean that you will be excluded because you are mistaken for white - but that doesn't mean whomever you were excluded for wasn't more qualified than you.
- malvosenior 8y ago
  I don't like it because I find the judging people based on their skin color extremely racist, yet I'm forced to support it due to the need to put food on the table. > diversity hiring may mean that you will be excluded because you are mistaken for white I consider this racism and it pains me to to have to play the game of the people committing it.

mamurphy 8y ago

>If you’re a white male, you could easily have been hired simply because of your skin color and gender and not your abilities. This may have been the case decade(s) ago, but I think the climate is very different now. With the prevalence of social "justice" hiring policies, I'd be much more confident I was hired because of ability, rather than to fill a quota, as a white male than any other race/sex combination. Sadly, affirmative action creates "mismatch" that often worsens the problem it is trying to solve. Minorities are highly recruited to fill quotas, even if less capable. This (1) puts them in over their head setting them up to fail and (2) creates a perception that the minorities are inherently less qualified (rather than the truth, that they are being over-selected for). One of many articles on this topic: https://www.nationalaffairs.com/publications/detail/the-sad-irony-of-affirmative-action https://www.nationalaffairs.com/publications/detail/the-sad-...

OpieCunningham 8y ago
> This may have been the case decade(s) ago, but I think the climate is very different now. I don't. I've met many incompetent white males in over their heads.
- fiblye 8y ago
  I’ve met many incompetent people who don’t belong at their job. Race and gender isn’t related.
  - OpieCunningham 8y ago
    Good. Then we're in agreement that hiring for diversity is of no detriment. Incompetent white people are hired because of subconscious bias and incompetent people of color are hired because of diversity goals. We've achieved equality.
    - fiblye 8y ago
      I think anyone who hires purely for race or appearance or physical diversity is absolutely incompetent. Having a fully conscious bias that intentionally hiring people physically different from you just because they’re physically different is pure, undiluted incompetence at the highest level and absolutely against equality since it gives preference to specific groups. In that sense, yes, we’re in full agreement and you intentionally warping my obvious meaning to guilt me into your line of thought won’t work.

AlexTWithBeard 8y ago

Subconscious bias may or may not take place in a specific case. Interviewer's bias can be with regards to race, sex, hair color, nationality, accent, physical fitness and so on. We may keep arguing about which if them plays higher role in me being hired. HR policies, on the other hand, is an objective reality with a measurable outcome.

OpieCunningham 8y ago
In a specific case, certainly. In the general case, subconscious bias plays a role. It doesn’t seem like a real argument that, generally speaking it is unknown whether race or gender bias is more of a determinant in hiring decisions than hair color bias. Is that an argument you consider rational? HR policies do have measurable outcomes. It's a question of what you think those measurements describe. A diversity hiring HR policy is a counter-action to the existing subconscious bias favoring white men, and a long term effort to squelch subconscious bias favoring white men by increasing exposure to diverse races/genders. Let's collect some long term data and analyze the result measurements, instead of pretending subconscious bias favoring white men doesn't exist.