4 ms·

I'm a successful college dropout, and I completely disagree. One of the strongest motivators for me leaving school after 1 year was the realization that virtual

I'm a successful college dropout, and I completely disagree. One of the strongest motivators for me leaving school after 1 year was the realization that virtually all of my classes gave me no more benefit than if I had just purchased the textbook and read it myself. As for every other classroom benefit, there are brilliant mentors all over the internet I can discuss what i'm learning with whenever I choose, without having to pay tuition.

SeanDav 8y ago
A large component of a university education is not so much what you learn at university, but the doors it can open for you later. In general (with some exceptions of course) it is unlikely you would be using very much of your university knowledge after a few years in your job in any case. You can have a very successful career without a college / university education, it is just easier to do the same with such an education. It is almost impossible to get certain jobs at all without a university education. For example, try getting into a major investment bank in any kind of well paid position without a good university education or serious work experience - it is just not going to happen. This is not a comment about trade schools - it should be a completely valid and respected career path, I am just saying that one should try getting a university degree if at all possible and makes sense for your type of career.
- invalidOrTaken 8y ago
  If this is true, it does not bode well for universities.
- RankingMember 8y ago
  The "need that piece of paper" thing is sad but true. I do think it is changing, as I notice more and more IT job postings asking for X degree or equivalent experience nowadays.
  - ngngngng 8y ago
    Amazons current job postings (at least at pillpack) advertise the need for a degree or 3 YEARS of experience for every 1 year a degree takes. So 12 years experience = 1 degree.
  - tracker1 8y ago
    I'm generally happy to see the "or equivalent experience" as someone who squeaked through HS. I picked up programming in my late teens while doing design work and just kind of naturally fell into it. My first 5-7 years working in the field were particularly difficult as more than half the jobs didn't have that as part of the statement, and the HR types typically wouldn't even let you past the gate.
  - mixmastamyk 8y ago
    Despite advice to the contrary the first step in the hiring funnel for coveted dev positions is to throw out applications w/o a four year degree. Ask me how I know. A bit different than IT, but related.
    - RankingMember 8y ago
      > Ask me how I know. How do you know?
      - mixmastamyk 8y ago
        When applying for coveted positions in my city, I’m immediately disqualified despite twenty years experience in what they seek. Has been going on for years.
- ryandrake 8y ago
  I’d agree with this. Sadly, the vast majority of the value that I got out of 4 year university was the piece of paper that said I graduated. The software development skills that I needed in my day to day job I had already learned by myself as a teenager. The advanced math and computer science classes were interesting but I can’t say I’ve used any of it after the exam. My career is no better due to my knowing what an eigenvector is. And the humanities fluff/filler they made you take to graduate was an irrelevant waste of time and money. I just needed that damn diploma. It is a signal to employers that says “this person has passed at least one standard hurdle and is qualified for a shot st the middle class,” but that’s about it. As OP points out, many career-training skills can be self-learned, especially nowadays, so I’m not sure why you’d go besides for the diploma.
ThrowawayR2 8y ago
> One of the strongest motivators for me leaving school after 1 year was the realization that virtually all of my classes gave me no more benefit than if I had just purchased the textbook and read it myself. And did you? Have you read and mastered all the textbooks necessary to allow you to pass the necessary exams to get a degree or to get a solid score on the GRE for your academic specialization? If not, that realization, even if it's true for you and others, isn't particularly useful. Most people can't or won't do the level of self-study needed.
- Datenstrom 8y ago
  Similar situation and yes I have done that and far beyond. I even work in a field where it is just assumed I have a degree and people are always extremely shocked when I mention that I do not. I am under the impression it is not possible to CLEP computer science classes or in any way get recognition for this. Is that correct? Edit: specify CLEP for computer science
  - ams6110 8y ago
    Good question. Are there any accredited graduate programs or professional programs that will accept students without undergrad degrees but with good GRE scores?
    - meltek 8y ago
      No undergrad at all? That would be fairly rare. Non CS undergrad? Lots of universities have programs or tracks for CS masters from a non-CS background. I have seen a few universities set up accelerated professional CS BA/BS in the past five years or so. A more common path that I have seen from self thought developers that "needed the degree" has been doing a reputable local or online BA/BS part-time. edit: grammar & formating
  - ThrowawayR2 8y ago
    You can take the GRE for CS without being a student, as proof of your knowledge. I have heard of very rare cases where people have been admitted to a professional master's program (different from the regular master's program in that it's meant for working professionals) without having a degree.
paulpauper 8y ago
A single anecdotal example is not convincing. in general, the data shows collage dropouts do worse on a wide range of metrics such as employment and wages than grads. Even if you can learn the material, having the diploma means more job opportunities.
- ngngngng 8y ago
  I wasn't attempting to, nor am I comfortable with suggesting that others can find my same level of success without a college degree. I'm in the 98th percentile of earners for my age. And that's just my salary in the mid level software engineering job. Obviously there's some luck or privilege or whatever in there. I was mostly arguing against the idea that college is more beneficial than other options for gaining an "expansive world view". I really don't find it necessary at all in the 21st century if that's your goal. If it's respected in your career path, and you have the means to attend, by all means get a degree.
auiya 8y ago
A college degree is attestation that you DID learn the curriculum being taught, not attestation that you obtained the materials necessary to learn the curriculum.
GarvielLoken 8y ago
Well it's also that you don't know what you don't know. The University programs are made by smart people with a good learning and a wealth of experiences and they design courses that goes all the way to the state of the art. To say that you do that on your own is hubris.

SeanDav 8y ago

A large component of a university education is not so much what you learn at university, but the doors it can open for you later. In general (with some exceptions of course) it is unlikely you would be using very much of your university knowledge after a few years in your job in any case. You can have a very successful career without a college / university education, it is just easier to do the same with such an education. It is almost impossible to get certain jobs at all without a university education. For example, try getting into a major investment bank in any kind of well paid position without a good university education or serious work experience - it is just not going to happen. This is not a comment about trade schools - it should be a completely valid and respected career path, I am just saying that one should try getting a university degree if at all possible and makes sense for your type of career.

invalidOrTaken 8y ago
If this is true, it does not bode well for universities.
RankingMember 8y ago
The "need that piece of paper" thing is sad but true. I do think it is changing, as I notice more and more IT job postings asking for X degree or equivalent experience nowadays.
- ngngngng 8y ago
  Amazons current job postings (at least at pillpack) advertise the need for a degree or 3 YEARS of experience for every 1 year a degree takes. So 12 years experience = 1 degree.
- tracker1 8y ago
  I'm generally happy to see the "or equivalent experience" as someone who squeaked through HS. I picked up programming in my late teens while doing design work and just kind of naturally fell into it. My first 5-7 years working in the field were particularly difficult as more than half the jobs didn't have that as part of the statement, and the HR types typically wouldn't even let you past the gate.
- mixmastamyk 8y ago
  Despite advice to the contrary the first step in the hiring funnel for coveted dev positions is to throw out applications w/o a four year degree. Ask me how I know. A bit different than IT, but related.
  - RankingMember 8y ago
    > Ask me how I know. How do you know?
    - mixmastamyk 8y ago
      When applying for coveted positions in my city, I’m immediately disqualified despite twenty years experience in what they seek. Has been going on for years.
ryandrake 8y ago
I’d agree with this. Sadly, the vast majority of the value that I got out of 4 year university was the piece of paper that said I graduated. The software development skills that I needed in my day to day job I had already learned by myself as a teenager. The advanced math and computer science classes were interesting but I can’t say I’ve used any of it after the exam. My career is no better due to my knowing what an eigenvector is. And the humanities fluff/filler they made you take to graduate was an irrelevant waste of time and money. I just needed that damn diploma. It is a signal to employers that says “this person has passed at least one standard hurdle and is qualified for a shot st the middle class,” but that’s about it. As OP points out, many career-training skills can be self-learned, especially nowadays, so I’m not sure why you’d go besides for the diploma.

ThrowawayR2 8y ago

> One of the strongest motivators for me leaving school after 1 year was the realization that virtually all of my classes gave me no more benefit than if I had just purchased the textbook and read it myself. And did you? Have you read and mastered all the textbooks necessary to allow you to pass the necessary exams to get a degree or to get a solid score on the GRE for your academic specialization? If not, that realization, even if it's true for you and others, isn't particularly useful. Most people can't or won't do the level of self-study needed.

Datenstrom 8y ago
Similar situation and yes I have done that and far beyond. I even work in a field where it is just assumed I have a degree and people are always extremely shocked when I mention that I do not. I am under the impression it is not possible to CLEP computer science classes or in any way get recognition for this. Is that correct? Edit: specify CLEP for computer science
- ams6110 8y ago
  Good question. Are there any accredited graduate programs or professional programs that will accept students without undergrad degrees but with good GRE scores?
  - meltek 8y ago
    No undergrad at all? That would be fairly rare. Non CS undergrad? Lots of universities have programs or tracks for CS masters from a non-CS background. I have seen a few universities set up accelerated professional CS BA/BS in the past five years or so. A more common path that I have seen from self thought developers that "needed the degree" has been doing a reputable local or online BA/BS part-time. edit: grammar & formating
- ThrowawayR2 8y ago
  You can take the GRE for CS without being a student, as proof of your knowledge. I have heard of very rare cases where people have been admitted to a professional master's program (different from the regular master's program in that it's meant for working professionals) without having a degree.

paulpauper 8y ago

A single anecdotal example is not convincing. in general, the data shows collage dropouts do worse on a wide range of metrics such as employment and wages than grads. Even if you can learn the material, having the diploma means more job opportunities.

ngngngng 8y ago
I wasn't attempting to, nor am I comfortable with suggesting that others can find my same level of success without a college degree. I'm in the 98th percentile of earners for my age. And that's just my salary in the mid level software engineering job. Obviously there's some luck or privilege or whatever in there. I was mostly arguing against the idea that college is more beneficial than other options for gaining an "expansive world view". I really don't find it necessary at all in the 21st century if that's your goal. If it's respected in your career path, and you have the means to attend, by all means get a degree.

auiya 8y ago

A college degree is attestation that you DID learn the curriculum being taught, not attestation that you obtained the materials necessary to learn the curriculum.

GarvielLoken 8y ago

Well it's also that you don't know what you don't know. The University programs are made by smart people with a good learning and a wealth of experiences and they design courses that goes all the way to the state of the art. To say that you do that on your own is hubris.