5 ms·

I disagree, those are virtues one needs just to become a programmer. The only skill that matters in the end is velocity; these days you are required to deliver

by bitL 8y ago

I disagree, those are virtues one needs just to become a programmer. The only skill that matters in the end is velocity; these days you are required to deliver a 99.999% solution that solves some "unsolvable" computer science problem in a practical way within 3 months. Whatever helps you to get there is what you need to acquire, the rest is useless. This article seemed to me like a story from a developer that is just factually leaving being junior in practice (not in title) and observing there is a bit more complex world out there... I hope that person doesn't end up in management, enforcing their tunnel vision on everybody underneath, capping their capabilities.

b_tterc_p 8y ago
This sounds like a worldview guaranteed to burn you out.
- bitL 8y ago
  That's why top programmers are more like top athletes; absolute focus, subordination of all activities towards their goals, delayed satisfaction. Companies that are lucky to get them crush the ones populated with regular, solid developers. That's why velocity is what matters in the end, if you have world-class developers.
  - b_tterc_p 8y ago
    Wow, you’ve drank more Kool Aid than the Kool Aid Man. I would strongly encourage placing less of your view of self worth outside of your “velocity”. That’s not the real world. Products will fail and it won’t be because you weren’t agile enough, it’ll be because the market is a jerk.
    - bitL 8y ago
      Let's say if you move slow, your probability of failure is 99.8%. If you move fast, your probability of failure is 97.3%. Which one would you choose as a company owner who wants to be a top dog? The whole Valley is based on velocity when you talk to and observe actions of VCs, disposeability of young programmers and how companies structure their own internal operation, inspired by military.
      - b_tterc_p 8y ago
        I would probably choose the company owner that wants to treat me like a human being? I actually haven’t heard much in the way of military analogies besides Palantir if I’m going to be honest, and I’m pretty sure they’re up there amongst the least desirable companies to work for in my eyes
HashHishBang 8y ago
People like you are the reason people like me are QA/SETs. Your velocity, in my view, is some slapdash worked-15-hour-days-because-they-thought-they-could nonsense that is more likely to crumble under load and/or the first edge case that pops to mind. The only one capping their capabilities here is you mate.
- bitL 8y ago
  You are naive. Did you work at world class companies that dominate their own market? They are exactly like that in the areas they are making money - they get the fastest programmers that could deliver world-class code. Not your typical half-baked developer quickly churning low-quality code in JS that breaks down after 5 seconds of load you get headaches from as a QA.
  - HashHishBang 8y ago
    >You are naive. Did you work at world class companies that dominate their own market? Seeing as I'm currently sitting in my office at Adobe I would say yes. There are plenty of code jockeys like you churning out low-quality Java/Python/PHP/C/C#/JS/whatever. You, despite what you may think, are not special. > Not your typical half-baked developer quickly churning low-quality code in JS that breaks down after 5 seconds of load you get headaches from as a QA. Cute. I get headaches from the guys who think they're great. From the ones who think that not documenting what they do is time wasted because clearly what this does is obvious. I get headaches from the people who have NO IDEA how their code actually performs and if there's any kind of slowdown well just throw more money at the hardware. I can practically hear you and the others like you cry out, "But it works on my machine!" Oh the headaches that has caused.
    - bitL 8y ago
      > There are plenty of code jockeys like you churning out low-quality Java/Python/PHP/C/C#/JS/whatever. OK, I landed #1 spot on HackerNews with a product I mostly developed (under a different nick) some time ago. You know everything about me as well. It was also competitor of one of your products. All I am saying is that these are assumptions/metrics with which VCs/owners run/structure their companies and what actually matters to them. I have experienced it dozen times. I have also experienced when I had to fix somebody's horrible code in production developed in high velocity/high stress/low quality mode that was bringing one famous tech company down (lawsuits etc.), and had to correct spots I'd never seen before in some of the most complicated areas of the product dealing with provably infeasible problems (distributed systems). I'd also experienced an environment in a relaxed top company (rated higher than either of FAANGs) where we discussed ad infinitum just individual names of functions, their parameters and if they perfectly capture their meaning and refactored them daily; I don't have to say that project wasn't having much of a velocity and its market share reflected that.
mobjack 8y ago
The skill that matters is realizing that those wanting 99.999% solution don't know what they are asking for. Most of the time they will be satisfied with an 80% solution.
- bitL 8y ago
  Doesn't apply when you work for the best, they require 99.999% if 100% is not possible. 80% won't get them anywhere though it might be good for an MVP for Series-A startups that also crave velocity pretty much.
cuddlecake 8y ago
The first part seemed so much like sarcasm, that the second part left me in a confused state.

by bitL 8y ago

b_tterc_p 8y ago

This sounds like a worldview guaranteed to burn you out.

bitL 8y ago
That's why top programmers are more like top athletes; absolute focus, subordination of all activities towards their goals, delayed satisfaction. Companies that are lucky to get them crush the ones populated with regular, solid developers. That's why velocity is what matters in the end, if you have world-class developers.
- b_tterc_p 8y ago
  Wow, you’ve drank more Kool Aid than the Kool Aid Man. I would strongly encourage placing less of your view of self worth outside of your “velocity”. That’s not the real world. Products will fail and it won’t be because you weren’t agile enough, it’ll be because the market is a jerk.
  - bitL 8y ago
    Let's say if you move slow, your probability of failure is 99.8%. If you move fast, your probability of failure is 97.3%. Which one would you choose as a company owner who wants to be a top dog? The whole Valley is based on velocity when you talk to and observe actions of VCs, disposeability of young programmers and how companies structure their own internal operation, inspired by military.
    - b_tterc_p 8y ago
      I would probably choose the company owner that wants to treat me like a human being? I actually haven’t heard much in the way of military analogies besides Palantir if I’m going to be honest, and I’m pretty sure they’re up there amongst the least desirable companies to work for in my eyes

HashHishBang 8y ago

People like you are the reason people like me are QA/SETs. Your velocity, in my view, is some slapdash worked-15-hour-days-because-they-thought-they-could nonsense that is more likely to crumble under load and/or the first edge case that pops to mind. The only one capping their capabilities here is you mate.

bitL 8y ago
You are naive. Did you work at world class companies that dominate their own market? They are exactly like that in the areas they are making money - they get the fastest programmers that could deliver world-class code. Not your typical half-baked developer quickly churning low-quality code in JS that breaks down after 5 seconds of load you get headaches from as a QA.
- HashHishBang 8y ago
  >You are naive. Did you work at world class companies that dominate their own market? Seeing as I'm currently sitting in my office at Adobe I would say yes. There are plenty of code jockeys like you churning out low-quality Java/Python/PHP/C/C#/JS/whatever. You, despite what you may think, are not special. > Not your typical half-baked developer quickly churning low-quality code in JS that breaks down after 5 seconds of load you get headaches from as a QA. Cute. I get headaches from the guys who think they're great. From the ones who think that not documenting what they do is time wasted because clearly what this does is obvious. I get headaches from the people who have NO IDEA how their code actually performs and if there's any kind of slowdown well just throw more money at the hardware. I can practically hear you and the others like you cry out, "But it works on my machine!" Oh the headaches that has caused.
  - bitL 8y ago
    > There are plenty of code jockeys like you churning out low-quality Java/Python/PHP/C/C#/JS/whatever. OK, I landed #1 spot on HackerNews with a product I mostly developed (under a different nick) some time ago. You know everything about me as well. It was also competitor of one of your products. All I am saying is that these are assumptions/metrics with which VCs/owners run/structure their companies and what actually matters to them. I have experienced it dozen times. I have also experienced when I had to fix somebody's horrible code in production developed in high velocity/high stress/low quality mode that was bringing one famous tech company down (lawsuits etc.), and had to correct spots I'd never seen before in some of the most complicated areas of the product dealing with provably infeasible problems (distributed systems). I'd also experienced an environment in a relaxed top company (rated higher than either of FAANGs) where we discussed ad infinitum just individual names of functions, their parameters and if they perfectly capture their meaning and refactored them daily; I don't have to say that project wasn't having much of a velocity and its market share reflected that.

mobjack 8y ago

The skill that matters is realizing that those wanting 99.999% solution don't know what they are asking for. Most of the time they will be satisfied with an 80% solution.

bitL 8y ago
Doesn't apply when you work for the best, they require 99.999% if 100% is not possible. 80% won't get them anywhere though it might be good for an MVP for Series-A startups that also crave velocity pretty much.

cuddlecake 8y ago

The first part seemed so much like sarcasm, that the second part left me in a confused state.