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It's really funny to me to just how much junk information there is in the coffee world and just how strongly people believe it. Even here on hackernews it seems

It's really funny to me to just how much junk information there is in the coffee world and just how strongly people believe it. Even here on hackernews it seems. This is the exact sort of 'fact' that sounds good, and makes you feel like you know what you're talking about. I'm a roaster. All coffee is sorted by size, or at least all quality coffee. It's necessary, not only for an even roast, but it's also an inherent part of green coffee processing. You have to screen and sort the beans to dry them. The reason grocery coffee is bad is simple. They roast it until the oils come out and then the oils go rancid because it has been sitting on the shelf for the last 6 months getting to you. Even if it hasn't gone rancid (way more common than you'd guess), it's still stale and overroasted. Americans expect coffee to be dark, bitter, and cheap... And so that's what they get. But what you said isn't true. Even the crappiest bulk market roaster/reseller roasts by size and the blends after. They literally don't have a choice. To be fair, a lot of the junk info comes from roasters keen on delineating themselves in any way in a saturated market. Taking words that are true for everyone and making them seem unique to your business is a sales tactic ad old as time. https://espressocoffeeguide.com/gourmet-coffee/arabian-and-african-coffees/kenya-coffee/kenya-coffee-grading/ https://espressocoffeeguide.com/gourmet-coffee/arabian-and-a...

JoeAltmaier 8y ago
Who's talking grocery stores? Coffee shops that roast, do it any way they want. And sure enough some do it badly.
AdmiralAsshat 8y ago
Hello! Coffee enthusiast here. I'd like to follow-up on this statement: > They roast it until the oils come out and then the oils go rancid because it has been sitting on the shelf for the last 6 months getting to you. Are you saying that it's bad if my coffee beans are glistening with oil? I usually took that to be an indicator of freshness. Or do you mean that if they're no longer glistening that the bag is probably stale? FWIW, most of what I buy (except for the Costco bag that I take to work) has a roasting date on the back so that I can guarantee a certain degree of freshness.
- cr1895 8y ago
  >I usually took that to be an indicator of freshness. I've only heard it described as a flaw. None of the recently and well-roasted beans from the local roasters I visit sell oily beans. But Starbucks? Or typical grocery coffee? Usually always dark and oily.
  - viciousvoxel 8y ago
    Surface oils are not an indicator of quality either way. The roasting process brings oils to the surface, so darker roasts tend to have more surface oils. From what I understand, the oils appear a few days after roasting, and then dry out/reabsorb after a few weeks.
    - lostlogin 8y ago
      Mostly how I see it too. I roast my own and I like it quite dark. I stop roasting when the first bit of oil appears and sprinkle water on to slow things down. The oil keeps coming out until the heat leaves, so getting the heat out of it is my objective. Stir and a little water, and wait until it cools about to touch. The oil doesn’t seem to keep coming out after the heat has left.
- radar 8y ago
  Oils start sweating out of the bean when you get closer to really dark roasts. You'll see a lot of Starbucks beans glisten. Lighter roasts will never be shiny like that because they haven't been roasted long enough for the oils to react like that. Always grind your beans just before you brew. Never buy preground coffee.
- sunshinelackof 8y ago
  > Are you saying that it's bad if my coffee beans are glistening with oil? It isn't inherently bad, but it's usually a sign of more mass produced coffee. It's easier to roast coffee like that because it all tastes pretty much the same which is good if you need to make the same coffee for thousands of different locations. And some people enjoy the carbonic taste of coffee like that. More lightly roasted coffees will have big differences in flavour that's not really possible to control for on a mass scale I don't think. Especially between origins and varieties.
js2 8y ago
The better groceries in my area (Whole Foods, Harris Teater, Publix) carry locally roasted beans with their roast dates on them.
bvinc 8y ago
I will back you up. I visited a coffee plantation in Guatemala and they said they sort all of their beans by size before selling them. I asked if people paid different prices, but they said no. The reason was that the roasters want consistent sizes. And this was just some small coffee plantation.
- teachrdan 8y ago
  Small plantations are more likely to be selling high quality beans, for which buyers pay a premium. (It's similar with cocoa beans.) So their high-end buyers/roasters may be accustomed to consistent bean size in a way that large-scale, low-margin purchasers are not.
ip26 8y ago
It's not even like sorting by size would be difficult. All you need is a sieve-like machine with different size holes & hoppers for each. Or a sluice-box, or one of many other ways to accomplish this. If it made a huge difference in quality, and it was not hard to do- everyone would be doing it. And indeed, they are. WRT junk info, coffee is not that different from audiophiles or wine. Luxury product, real differences exist, but they are subtle & hard to measure. Most of the experience is subjective.
- lostlogin 8y ago
  Mostly true, but unlike high end audio, the best coffee can be bought by most people. The best I’ve ever had was $2US.
  - michaelcampbell 8y ago
    > Most of the experience is subjective. Followed closely by... > The best I’ve ever had was $2US. QED
  - Obi_Juan_Kenobi 8y ago
    High end audio isn't expensive, the bullshit is. You can grab some nice drivers, unreasonably high-quality crossover components, and couple sheets of MDF to make yourself some floor-standers for a few hundred. Using any number of popular DIY speaker designs, you'll have something that would easily stand up to anything of a similar format in a blind A/B test. Amplification is dirt cheap now; class-D amps are superlatively good even in the <$100 category. You can even add in DSP for a very reasonable price if you want to jerk off to glass-flat charts.
    - foobarchu 8y ago
      Building your own is not the same as buying, though. What would the cost for that same product be if it came all assembled for you, but the same quality? I'm betting it's pretty expensive. It's probably also not that expensive to roast your own coffee beans, but it's an extra step that non-hobbyists don't want to deal with.
teilo 8y ago
I am also a coffee roaster. Everything this person says is true.

JoeAltmaier 8y ago

Who's talking grocery stores? Coffee shops that roast, do it any way they want. And sure enough some do it badly.

AdmiralAsshat 8y ago

Hello! Coffee enthusiast here. I'd like to follow-up on this statement: > They roast it until the oils come out and then the oils go rancid because it has been sitting on the shelf for the last 6 months getting to you. Are you saying that it's bad if my coffee beans are glistening with oil? I usually took that to be an indicator of freshness. Or do you mean that if they're no longer glistening that the bag is probably stale? FWIW, most of what I buy (except for the Costco bag that I take to work) has a roasting date on the back so that I can guarantee a certain degree of freshness.

cr1895 8y ago
>I usually took that to be an indicator of freshness. I've only heard it described as a flaw. None of the recently and well-roasted beans from the local roasters I visit sell oily beans. But Starbucks? Or typical grocery coffee? Usually always dark and oily.
- viciousvoxel 8y ago
  Surface oils are not an indicator of quality either way. The roasting process brings oils to the surface, so darker roasts tend to have more surface oils. From what I understand, the oils appear a few days after roasting, and then dry out/reabsorb after a few weeks.
  - lostlogin 8y ago
    Mostly how I see it too. I roast my own and I like it quite dark. I stop roasting when the first bit of oil appears and sprinkle water on to slow things down. The oil keeps coming out until the heat leaves, so getting the heat out of it is my objective. Stir and a little water, and wait until it cools about to touch. The oil doesn’t seem to keep coming out after the heat has left.
radar 8y ago
Oils start sweating out of the bean when you get closer to really dark roasts. You'll see a lot of Starbucks beans glisten. Lighter roasts will never be shiny like that because they haven't been roasted long enough for the oils to react like that. Always grind your beans just before you brew. Never buy preground coffee.
sunshinelackof 8y ago
> Are you saying that it's bad if my coffee beans are glistening with oil? It isn't inherently bad, but it's usually a sign of more mass produced coffee. It's easier to roast coffee like that because it all tastes pretty much the same which is good if you need to make the same coffee for thousands of different locations. And some people enjoy the carbonic taste of coffee like that. More lightly roasted coffees will have big differences in flavour that's not really possible to control for on a mass scale I don't think. Especially between origins and varieties.

js2 8y ago

The better groceries in my area (Whole Foods, Harris Teater, Publix) carry locally roasted beans with their roast dates on them.

bvinc 8y ago

I will back you up. I visited a coffee plantation in Guatemala and they said they sort all of their beans by size before selling them. I asked if people paid different prices, but they said no. The reason was that the roasters want consistent sizes. And this was just some small coffee plantation.

teachrdan 8y ago
Small plantations are more likely to be selling high quality beans, for which buyers pay a premium. (It's similar with cocoa beans.) So their high-end buyers/roasters may be accustomed to consistent bean size in a way that large-scale, low-margin purchasers are not.

ip26 8y ago

It's not even like sorting by size would be difficult. All you need is a sieve-like machine with different size holes & hoppers for each. Or a sluice-box, or one of many other ways to accomplish this. If it made a huge difference in quality, and it was not hard to do- everyone would be doing it. And indeed, they are. WRT junk info, coffee is not that different from audiophiles or wine. Luxury product, real differences exist, but they are subtle & hard to measure. Most of the experience is subjective.

lostlogin 8y ago
Mostly true, but unlike high end audio, the best coffee can be bought by most people. The best I’ve ever had was $2US.
- michaelcampbell 8y ago
  > Most of the experience is subjective. Followed closely by... > The best I’ve ever had was $2US. QED
- Obi_Juan_Kenobi 8y ago
  High end audio isn't expensive, the bullshit is. You can grab some nice drivers, unreasonably high-quality crossover components, and couple sheets of MDF to make yourself some floor-standers for a few hundred. Using any number of popular DIY speaker designs, you'll have something that would easily stand up to anything of a similar format in a blind A/B test. Amplification is dirt cheap now; class-D amps are superlatively good even in the <$100 category. You can even add in DSP for a very reasonable price if you want to jerk off to glass-flat charts.
  - foobarchu 8y ago
    Building your own is not the same as buying, though. What would the cost for that same product be if it came all assembled for you, but the same quality? I'm betting it's pretty expensive. It's probably also not that expensive to roast your own coffee beans, but it's an extra step that non-hobbyists don't want to deal with.

teilo 8y ago

I am also a coffee roaster. Everything this person says is true.