4 ms·

> The point of the story is that not everyone can do a Vegan diet and still be healthy. When you hear a story about how some substance 'cured cancer' do you in

by dejb 16y ago

> The point of the story is that not everyone can do a Vegan diet and still be healthy. When you hear a story about how some substance 'cured cancer' do you instantly conclude that the claims are necessarily correct - even for the cured person in the story? Would you expect the story to become popular on HN? The problem with one-off anecdotes like this is that they don't even conclusively demonstrate anything. > I sometimes wonder if Vegans worry about Lions on the savannah eating antelope. Dude that is a really ignorant and insulting thing to say. > Humans are Omnivores. We are built to get nutrients from both meat and plantlife. And here you demonstrate your limited grasp of evolution which a resort to a naturalistic fallacy. > Our metabolisms work best when we eat both in moderation. Actually the research demonstrates otherwise. > A Vegan lifestyle makes it harder to eat healthy not easier That is trivially true in a society where adding animal products to many foods is routine. If even 20% of the population was vegan it would be trivial to follow a vegan diet.

SmokenJoe 16y ago
Being a strict vegan and getting all the required nutrients to maintain optimal health is almost mutually exclusive. You can take pills and shots to make up for the missing parts but these use animal products. It can be an insane amount of work for normal people. To say it would be easy if more people do it does not reflect the realities of nutrition. I wish you luck but it is not and can not be for everyone at leat not strict vegetarianism I also think that people who are pregnant and maintain the diet are amoral there is no shortage of research that show it can harm the infant. Note meat little meat and almost shurly less than optimal for health. I don't like the people that go against research.
- dejb 16y ago
  Dude you've mostly just stated a bunch of unsubstantiated opinions which I assert are factually in error. You specifically mentioned 'there is no shortage of research that show it can harm the infant'. If there is no shortage of this research then you should easily be able to provide at least one reference.
  - zaphar 16y ago
    Rather than list all the studies here I'll just link you to a page with that lists them. http://healthpsych.psy.vanderbilt.edu/2008/VeganDiets.htm http://healthpsych.psy.vanderbilt.edu/2008/VeganDiets.htm That page lists studies showing B12 deficiencies, bone density issues, and elevated Homocystein issues. Also there is a very strong link to issues with pregnant and nursing women and their babies due to B12 deficiencies. The opinion of most researchers in this area appears to be that pregnant and nursing women should not follow a strict Vegan diet.
    - dejb 16y ago
      So the basic conclusion of this study is 'The evidence surrounding veganism appears to be mixed'. And further 'Overall, veganism is healthier than an omnivorous diet with respect to chronic diseases'. Did you manage to read these parts? With respect to B12 it seems that there is clearly good evidence for vegans to take a supplement. With regards to pregnant and nursing women the evidence seemed a bit less clear. There doesn't seem to be any mention of actual problems with vegan children, only correlations between them and children that did have problems. Despite the uncertainly It certain seems good enough evidence to take b12 supplement for vegans. So the takeaway I get from this is that (Vegan diet + b12/multivitamin) >> Omnivorous diet
zaphar 16y ago
> Dude that is a really ignorant and insulting thing to say. Why? We have it within our power to prevent that particular form of animal suffering. Give me enough money and political power and I could round up all the antelope and lions and keep em seperated. How is ignoring that form of animal suffering any different than ignoring animal farming? > And here you demonstrate your limited grasp of evolution which a resort to a naturalistic fallacy. I'll bite. How is it a fallacy? Fact: Humans are capable of digesting and processing meat. Fact: Humans have been eating meat for as long as we've been around. Fact: Humans get a number of nutrients in meat that are not easily found elsewhere in a form we can process. >> Our metabolisms work best when we eat both in moderation. > Actually the research demonstrates otherwise. Citation needed > That is trivially true in a society where adding animal products to many foods is routine. If even 20% of the population was vegan it would be trivial to follow a vegan diet. Because the market would provide? Either way you still have to work harder and be far more careful with what you eat in order to pull it off so my point still stands. No where did I say it was impossible. Notice I said in moderation as well. You wouldn't have to eat a lot of meat to get the required nutrition.
- Tichy 16y ago
  "Either way you still have to work harder" Since the production of meat uses up more resources (energy) than plant based food, I think your claim does not hold up. It is easier to produce plant based food, so why should it be harder to buy plant based food? I also doubt that you automatically eat healthy by simply adding meat to your diet.
- dejb 16y ago
  >> Dude that is a really ignorant and insulting thing to say. >Why? You obviously have absolutely no idea of the range of reasons people have for being vegan do you? Here are a few - Visceral disgust at the though of consuming animal flesh / produce - The view that a vegan diet is healthier than a diet with meat. Also a view that meat products are a significant cause of many of our chronic diseases. Both of these views are well backed by a large amount of science for example 'the China Study'. - The view that plant food is significantly more efficient to produce (5-10 times) and far less harmful for the environment than meat. This is true not just in term of calories but also for protein. See : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_vegetarianism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_vegetarianism - Religious beliefs - The view that human control of animals represents a kind of slavery. - The view that it is immoral for humans to knowingly and unnecessarily kill and/or cause pain to another being. The fact that humans are intelligent enough to have a choice and understand the consequences of their actions is the important thing. Many vegans feel especially strongly about factory farming which is often cruel in the extreme. See : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics_of_eating_meat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics_of_eating_meat So now do you see how ignorant your point about lions is? Veganism is primarily about humans relationship to animals not about animals relationships with each other. > I'll bite. How is it a fallacy? By definition, that's how. Look it up : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy > Citation needed There are so many but I'll just stick with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Study http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Study cause I'm lazy. > Because the market would provide? Yes there would be numerous vegan options with the nutrient mix customized to suit vegan diets. > Either way you still have to work harder and be far more careful with what you eat in order to pull it off so my point still stands. You have to work pretty hard with a meat based diet to avoid the chronic diseases it can cause.

by dejb 16y ago

SmokenJoe 16y ago

Being a strict vegan and getting all the required nutrients to maintain optimal health is almost mutually exclusive. You can take pills and shots to make up for the missing parts but these use animal products. It can be an insane amount of work for normal people. To say it would be easy if more people do it does not reflect the realities of nutrition. I wish you luck but it is not and can not be for everyone at leat not strict vegetarianism I also think that people who are pregnant and maintain the diet are amoral there is no shortage of research that show it can harm the infant. Note meat little meat and almost shurly less than optimal for health. I don't like the people that go against research.

dejb 16y ago
Dude you've mostly just stated a bunch of unsubstantiated opinions which I assert are factually in error. You specifically mentioned 'there is no shortage of research that show it can harm the infant'. If there is no shortage of this research then you should easily be able to provide at least one reference.
- zaphar 16y ago
  Rather than list all the studies here I'll just link you to a page with that lists them. http://healthpsych.psy.vanderbilt.edu/2008/VeganDiets.htm http://healthpsych.psy.vanderbilt.edu/2008/VeganDiets.htm That page lists studies showing B12 deficiencies, bone density issues, and elevated Homocystein issues. Also there is a very strong link to issues with pregnant and nursing women and their babies due to B12 deficiencies. The opinion of most researchers in this area appears to be that pregnant and nursing women should not follow a strict Vegan diet.
  - dejb 16y ago
    So the basic conclusion of this study is 'The evidence surrounding veganism appears to be mixed'. And further 'Overall, veganism is healthier than an omnivorous diet with respect to chronic diseases'. Did you manage to read these parts? With respect to B12 it seems that there is clearly good evidence for vegans to take a supplement. With regards to pregnant and nursing women the evidence seemed a bit less clear. There doesn't seem to be any mention of actual problems with vegan children, only correlations between them and children that did have problems. Despite the uncertainly It certain seems good enough evidence to take b12 supplement for vegans. So the takeaway I get from this is that (Vegan diet + b12/multivitamin) >> Omnivorous diet

zaphar 16y ago

> Dude that is a really ignorant and insulting thing to say. Why? We have it within our power to prevent that particular form of animal suffering. Give me enough money and political power and I could round up all the antelope and lions and keep em seperated. How is ignoring that form of animal suffering any different than ignoring animal farming? > And here you demonstrate your limited grasp of evolution which a resort to a naturalistic fallacy. I'll bite. How is it a fallacy? Fact: Humans are capable of digesting and processing meat. Fact: Humans have been eating meat for as long as we've been around. Fact: Humans get a number of nutrients in meat that are not easily found elsewhere in a form we can process. >> Our metabolisms work best when we eat both in moderation. > Actually the research demonstrates otherwise. Citation needed > That is trivially true in a society where adding animal products to many foods is routine. If even 20% of the population was vegan it would be trivial to follow a vegan diet. Because the market would provide? Either way you still have to work harder and be far more careful with what you eat in order to pull it off so my point still stands. No where did I say it was impossible. Notice I said in moderation as well. You wouldn't have to eat a lot of meat to get the required nutrition.

Tichy 16y ago
"Either way you still have to work harder" Since the production of meat uses up more resources (energy) than plant based food, I think your claim does not hold up. It is easier to produce plant based food, so why should it be harder to buy plant based food? I also doubt that you automatically eat healthy by simply adding meat to your diet.
dejb 16y ago
>> Dude that is a really ignorant and insulting thing to say. >Why? You obviously have absolutely no idea of the range of reasons people have for being vegan do you? Here are a few - Visceral disgust at the though of consuming animal flesh / produce - The view that a vegan diet is healthier than a diet with meat. Also a view that meat products are a significant cause of many of our chronic diseases. Both of these views are well backed by a large amount of science for example 'the China Study'. - The view that plant food is significantly more efficient to produce (5-10 times) and far less harmful for the environment than meat. This is true not just in term of calories but also for protein. See : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_vegetarianism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_vegetarianism - Religious beliefs - The view that human control of animals represents a kind of slavery. - The view that it is immoral for humans to knowingly and unnecessarily kill and/or cause pain to another being. The fact that humans are intelligent enough to have a choice and understand the consequences of their actions is the important thing. Many vegans feel especially strongly about factory farming which is often cruel in the extreme. See : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics_of_eating_meat http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethics_of_eating_meat So now do you see how ignorant your point about lions is? Veganism is primarily about humans relationship to animals not about animals relationships with each other. > I'll bite. How is it a fallacy? By definition, that's how. Look it up : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy > Citation needed There are so many but I'll just stick with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Study http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Study cause I'm lazy. > Because the market would provide? Yes there would be numerous vegan options with the nutrient mix customized to suit vegan diets. > Either way you still have to work harder and be far more careful with what you eat in order to pull it off so my point still stands. You have to work pretty hard with a meat based diet to avoid the chronic diseases it can cause.