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Why is US pretending to be friend with an enemy that is out to steal anything in US that isn’t locked down? Least of which, an enemy that is a dictatorship that

Why is US pretending to be friend with an enemy that is out to steal anything in US that isn’t locked down? Least of which, an enemy that is a dictatorship that has oppressed religion, democracy, free speech, and free will in its domain?

devoply 8y ago
Because business, the US business interest developed China for making a profit -- you have a billion smart people that work long hours for peanuts to exploit. But those people saw that as an opportunity to rule. The new strategy however seems to be one of containment by automating and moving manufacturing back to the mainland... What do you expect China to do with a billion people that have gotten used to a $6,000 average yearly wage. It's going to do everything it can to survive and grow... and the Chinese are as smart as Americans. Man vs. Man.
- witcherchaos 8y ago
  Yeah its a shame. Most multinationals have already diversified out of China (usually less than 30% of capacity is left in China now). It’s the middle sized and small sized businesses that were too stupid not to diversify out of China, and now have to beg and plead for mercy from a malevolent Chinese government. And drag the US down with them. I hope the current administration can stand up against them.
chibg10 8y ago
Apart from reasons already mentioned (business), I suspect another large contributor is that the these types of articles only reach a relatively small audience in the US (albeit an audience that has outsize influence on FP matters). If these articles reach 10% of the population, I tend to believe the other 90% is probably far more worried about whatever domestic outrage storm (left or right) happens to be occurring on Twitter that day and probably has no idea why they should care about China one iota or how China will affect them. (They do know that China = marginally lower prices though) I believe this is a tragic mistake that will be looked on with regret in 20-30 years (or maybe less), but it is what it is.
frozenport 8y ago
It wasn't politically correct. The research institute the employees me is almost majority international undergrads, and majority international grad students. The institute looses money on every student, and I struggle to justify why the US is paying for unilateral technology transfer to hostile nations. Expressing this opinion got my friend nearly kicked out, he had to apologize. Even a few years ago any anti-china comments would be blocked on HN.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
vkou 8y ago
> Why is US pretending to be friend with an enemy that is out to steal anything in US that isn’t locked down? Because the thing about capitalism, is that its acolytes will happily sell the rope that they will be hanged with. To meet Wall Street's next quarterly expectations for rope sales, of course. Companies want to do business with China, because there is money to be made, and their owners don't give a care about free speech or religion of people on the other side of the world. And this is a good thing. It means that there's a lot of wealthy, influential people, who would really hate for there to be a war between two superpowers, despite the best efforts of nationalists. PS. Countries spy on eachother all the time. If you think the US does not steal military secrets from its friends, and enemies, I've got a bridge to sell you.
simula67 8y ago
US should be friends with other nuclear powers, at least in a limited sense, for the safety of all of humanity There are other mechanisms for combating Chinese wrongdoings
NeedMoreTea 8y ago
The alternative has been tried. It was the Cold War and McCarthyism. It was far from successful in limiting the aspirations of the opponents. McCarthyism came with some dictatorship like restrictions and paranoia within the US. It was also pretending to be friends with its allies in the same period. So what's your alternative?
curiousgal 8y ago
See I could never comprehend this attitude, how is it that we throw the word "enemy" around so lightly at countries that steal our technology or are dictatorships but we get so appalled and shocked when middle eastern countries that we bomb call us the enemy? We should probably raise the bar as to what constitutes an enemy if we want to remain on our moral high horse, because otherwise we're hypocrites. Just my two cents.
- themodelplumber 8y ago
  People use the word "enemy" when they speak about protecting themselves, because they sense that they are vulnerable or becoming more vulnerable. When others talk about protecting themselves _from you_, yes, that's uncomfortable. But saying "we get so appalled and shocked" kind of points at a straw-man "we" here. That's not "us" in every case. It might just be those reactionaries over here or there. It also points at the shock of diving into a culture as the US did in the middle east: Wow, it's diverse, not just one opinion--shocking. That's how education happens. Raising the bar as to what constitutes an enemy carries a very clear risk, too: Underestimating your enemy. People know a lot about that nowadays. However I think we can develop our cultural vocabulary here. There's an opportunity for that and it's very clear when discussions about "enemy" and how it's awkward even arise.
- friedman23 8y ago
  > we get so appalled and shocked when middle eastern countries that we bomb call us the enemy do they? or are you talking about Americans getting appalled and shocked by people calling for their deaths? There is a significant difference.
openloop 8y ago
Why is Russia pretending to befriend the United States? Oh wait they tried to destroy the country’s election. Get the logic?
SamReidHughes 8y ago
I guarantee you the US tries to steal their military secrets too. There's no reason to be angry about this at all -- spying is like reading your competitor company's blog.
- killjoywashere 8y ago
  The competitor's company can't put you in front of a firing squad or sentence you to a gulag.
  - majia 8y ago
    Isn’t the US trying to sentence a senior executive of Huawei to a gulag?
    - killjoywashere 8y ago
      I didn't say the US was innocent of anything.
  - SamReidHughes 8y ago
    Yes, that's why it's even more important to spy on other countries.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
themodelplumber 8y ago
I mean, we also put Yanjun Xu, an officer of the Chinese espionage apparatus, in federal prison last year. This friend/enemy/partner/adversary thing really works in multiple dimensions.
koonsolo 8y ago
> Why is US pretending to be friend with an enemy that is out to steal anything in US that isn’t locked down? In the same reasoning, you could argue that EU should consider US as an enemy, since there is plenty of evidence on US spying on EU. So please explain why it's not OK for China to spy on US, but it's ok for US to spy on EU.
- Sabinus 8y ago
  The US listening to Merkel's private communications is more expected in international spying. Having teams of state sanctioned hackers target commercial and educational bodies to steal technology to replicate back home is a bit different.
  - koonsolo 8y ago
    You mean more like the industrial/economic espionage of ECHELON, where various European companies lost billions of dollars? You mean China is doing something similar to that? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON#Concerns https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON#Concerns "In 1999, Enercon, a German company and leading manufacturer of wind energy equipment, developed a breakthrough generator for wind turbines. After applying for a US patent, it had learned that Kenetech, an American rival, had submitted an almost identical patent application shortly before. By the statement of a former NSA employee, it was later discovered that the NSA had secretly intercepted and monitored Enercon's data communications and conference calls and passed information regarding the new generator to Kenetech" Please tell me the difference again...
afpx 8y ago
I’d say foreign policy is complicated, but that’s an understatement. For one thing, US foreign policy often encourages trade with non-democratic countries because strong evidence shows that trade prevents wars. It also produces an educated middle class that desires more freedoms, less corruption, rule or law, and oversight. The theory is that eventually they will demand democratic governance. And, democratic countries don’t declare war on each other. Ultimately, US foreign policy follows its citizen’s best interests. And, ignoring our occasional knee jerk reactions, most of our citizens are happy when we avoid war, expand individual rights and freedoms, increase trade, and maintain global stability. China may not work out as expected, though. Who knows. I doubt anyone in the 70s believed that technology would advance far enough to allow an oppressive government to effectively control billions of people. Or, maybe the Chinese people are happy enough with their recently gained wealth that they accept being oppressed.

devoply 8y ago

Because business, the US business interest developed China for making a profit -- you have a billion smart people that work long hours for peanuts to exploit. But those people saw that as an opportunity to rule. The new strategy however seems to be one of containment by automating and moving manufacturing back to the mainland... What do you expect China to do with a billion people that have gotten used to a $6,000 average yearly wage. It's going to do everything it can to survive and grow... and the Chinese are as smart as Americans. Man vs. Man.

witcherchaos 8y ago
Yeah its a shame. Most multinationals have already diversified out of China (usually less than 30% of capacity is left in China now). It’s the middle sized and small sized businesses that were too stupid not to diversify out of China, and now have to beg and plead for mercy from a malevolent Chinese government. And drag the US down with them. I hope the current administration can stand up against them.

chibg10 8y ago

Apart from reasons already mentioned (business), I suspect another large contributor is that the these types of articles only reach a relatively small audience in the US (albeit an audience that has outsize influence on FP matters). If these articles reach 10% of the population, I tend to believe the other 90% is probably far more worried about whatever domestic outrage storm (left or right) happens to be occurring on Twitter that day and probably has no idea why they should care about China one iota or how China will affect them. (They do know that China = marginally lower prices though) I believe this is a tragic mistake that will be looked on with regret in 20-30 years (or maybe less), but it is what it is.

frozenport 8y ago

It wasn't politically correct. The research institute the employees me is almost majority international undergrads, and majority international grad students. The institute looses money on every student, and I struggle to justify why the US is paying for unilateral technology transfer to hostile nations. Expressing this opinion got my friend nearly kicked out, he had to apologize. Even a few years ago any anti-china comments would be blocked on HN.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

vkou 8y ago

> Why is US pretending to be friend with an enemy that is out to steal anything in US that isn’t locked down? Because the thing about capitalism, is that its acolytes will happily sell the rope that they will be hanged with. To meet Wall Street's next quarterly expectations for rope sales, of course. Companies want to do business with China, because there is money to be made, and their owners don't give a care about free speech or religion of people on the other side of the world. And this is a good thing. It means that there's a lot of wealthy, influential people, who would really hate for there to be a war between two superpowers, despite the best efforts of nationalists. PS. Countries spy on eachother all the time. If you think the US does not steal military secrets from its friends, and enemies, I've got a bridge to sell you.

simula67 8y ago

US should be friends with other nuclear powers, at least in a limited sense, for the safety of all of humanity There are other mechanisms for combating Chinese wrongdoings

NeedMoreTea 8y ago

The alternative has been tried. It was the Cold War and McCarthyism. It was far from successful in limiting the aspirations of the opponents. McCarthyism came with some dictatorship like restrictions and paranoia within the US. It was also pretending to be friends with its allies in the same period. So what's your alternative?

curiousgal 8y ago

See I could never comprehend this attitude, how is it that we throw the word "enemy" around so lightly at countries that steal our technology or are dictatorships but we get so appalled and shocked when middle eastern countries that we bomb call us the enemy? We should probably raise the bar as to what constitutes an enemy if we want to remain on our moral high horse, because otherwise we're hypocrites. Just my two cents.

themodelplumber 8y ago
People use the word "enemy" when they speak about protecting themselves, because they sense that they are vulnerable or becoming more vulnerable. When others talk about protecting themselves _from you_, yes, that's uncomfortable. But saying "we get so appalled and shocked" kind of points at a straw-man "we" here. That's not "us" in every case. It might just be those reactionaries over here or there. It also points at the shock of diving into a culture as the US did in the middle east: Wow, it's diverse, not just one opinion--shocking. That's how education happens. Raising the bar as to what constitutes an enemy carries a very clear risk, too: Underestimating your enemy. People know a lot about that nowadays. However I think we can develop our cultural vocabulary here. There's an opportunity for that and it's very clear when discussions about "enemy" and how it's awkward even arise.
friedman23 8y ago
> we get so appalled and shocked when middle eastern countries that we bomb call us the enemy do they? or are you talking about Americans getting appalled and shocked by people calling for their deaths? There is a significant difference.

openloop 8y ago

Why is Russia pretending to befriend the United States? Oh wait they tried to destroy the country’s election. Get the logic?

SamReidHughes 8y ago

I guarantee you the US tries to steal their military secrets too. There's no reason to be angry about this at all -- spying is like reading your competitor company's blog.

killjoywashere 8y ago
The competitor's company can't put you in front of a firing squad or sentence you to a gulag.
- majia 8y ago
  Isn’t the US trying to sentence a senior executive of Huawei to a gulag?
  - killjoywashere 8y ago
    I didn't say the US was innocent of anything.
- SamReidHughes 8y ago
  Yes, that's why it's even more important to spy on other countries.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]

themodelplumber 8y ago

I mean, we also put Yanjun Xu, an officer of the Chinese espionage apparatus, in federal prison last year. This friend/enemy/partner/adversary thing really works in multiple dimensions.

koonsolo 8y ago

> Why is US pretending to be friend with an enemy that is out to steal anything in US that isn’t locked down? In the same reasoning, you could argue that EU should consider US as an enemy, since there is plenty of evidence on US spying on EU. So please explain why it's not OK for China to spy on US, but it's ok for US to spy on EU.

Sabinus 8y ago
The US listening to Merkel's private communications is more expected in international spying. Having teams of state sanctioned hackers target commercial and educational bodies to steal technology to replicate back home is a bit different.
- koonsolo 8y ago
  You mean more like the industrial/economic espionage of ECHELON, where various European companies lost billions of dollars? You mean China is doing something similar to that? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON#Concerns https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON#Concerns "In 1999, Enercon, a German company and leading manufacturer of wind energy equipment, developed a breakthrough generator for wind turbines. After applying for a US patent, it had learned that Kenetech, an American rival, had submitted an almost identical patent application shortly before. By the statement of a former NSA employee, it was later discovered that the NSA had secretly intercepted and monitored Enercon's data communications and conference calls and passed information regarding the new generator to Kenetech" Please tell me the difference again...

afpx 8y ago

I’d say foreign policy is complicated, but that’s an understatement. For one thing, US foreign policy often encourages trade with non-democratic countries because strong evidence shows that trade prevents wars. It also produces an educated middle class that desires more freedoms, less corruption, rule or law, and oversight. The theory is that eventually they will demand democratic governance. And, democratic countries don’t declare war on each other. Ultimately, US foreign policy follows its citizen’s best interests. And, ignoring our occasional knee jerk reactions, most of our citizens are happy when we avoid war, expand individual rights and freedoms, increase trade, and maintain global stability. China may not work out as expected, though. Who knows. I doubt anyone in the 70s believed that technology would advance far enough to allow an oppressive government to effectively control billions of people. Or, maybe the Chinese people are happy enough with their recently gained wealth that they accept being oppressed.